Official Languages Committee on Feb. 17th, 2023

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

I'm sure your answer is correct.

Therefore, those lists can't be considered a valid tool, because the likelihood of them being made available to us is virtually nil.

[Chantal Terrien]

I'd like to make a clarification, if I may, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Go ahead, Mrs. Terrien.

[Chantal Terrien]

It's important to remember that the Statistics Act sets out the mandate of Statistics Canada and gives broad powers to the chief statistician to obtain data from other entities. In addition to conducting the census, Statistics Canada also conducts post-census surveys.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mrs. Terrien.

Mr. Lehoux, you now have the floor.

[Richard Lehoux, Conservative, Beauce, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have some issues with the subamendment because it talks about periodic estimates, but the amendment specifies that “the Government of Canada is committed to periodically cause to be counted the number of children…”. Ms. Boyer just said the federal government is committed to making an estimate.

To me, there's a huge difference. What's important to me is that someone commits to periodically making the count happen. We should be able to call a spade a spade.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Lehoux.

Mr. Drouin, you have the floor.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

I have a few questions.

In principle, the short-form census, which includes the entire rights holder question, is sent out to Canadians every five years, right?

[Chantal Terrien]

Yes, it's every five years.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship is right beside me and confirming that, for the first time in 20 years, the Government of Canada has met its target for francophone immigration outside Quebec, which is 4.4%.

The government could continue to meet this target for 50 years. That would mean making a low estimate of the number of francophones in our communities outside Quebec because we would rely on a single tool, the census, which is conducted every five years. It would lead to fewer services for francophones across Canada, or fewer services for the anglophone community in Quebec.

However, we do have other tools, such as school board waiting lists, that can tell us how many students want to enrol in schools. They could be used as another tool to determine the demand in French or English schools in Quebec. That's what we're talking about right now. However, it must be clearly understood that the federal government can't force the provinces' hand on this.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Drouin.

Mr. Serré, you have the floor.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to continue in the same vein as Mr. Drouin.

I understand the interventions, but I want to try to clarify Mr. Gourde's comment. I was a school trustee for six years. All French-language school boards have an interest in providing this data and want to do so. It has nothing to do with the federal government.

We talk about the federal government's commitment and the fact that it has no power over the provinces, and I understand that some parties want to mix up these notions because of provincial jurisdictions. However, Ms. Boyer, if we leave provincial jurisdiction aside, would it be in the best interest of French-language school boards to send data to the federal government on a regular basis?

I think the subamendment reflects that, and I think we're saying the same thing, but I'd just like to get that clarification.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

You have the floor, Ms. Boyer.

[Julie Boyer]

Thank you for the question.

That is why the amendment proposes to add a reference to other necessary tools, which could contribute to a more accurate estimate of the number of rights holders, for example, between census periods.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Ms. Boyer.

You have the floor, Mr. Généreux.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Ms. Terrien and Ms. Boyer, I'm going to phrase the question differently.

You can understand the aim of my colleagues Mr. Serré and Mr. Godin. We are trying to create an ideal or perfect legislation, to improve it as much as possible.

Could the subamendment and the amendment that the committee is currently studying be worded differently or better to improve Bill C‑13 even further?

[Chantal Terrien]

Thank you for the question.

First of all, I would like to say that I cannot comment, because I do not have an opinion on your remark or your question.

That said, as Ms. Boyer and my colleagues have mentioned, we must remember that we are talking about a commitment. The rights holders we are talking about are in the area of education, an area of provincial and territorial jurisdiction.

Although the federal government does have some tools, such as the census and others that have been mentioned, it does not control all the parameters, because education is a provincial jurisdiction.

Since we're talking about a commitment here, I would also like to remind you that clause 4 of Bill C‑13, which the committee has already adopted, requires the Minister of Canadian Heritage to implement that very commitment.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Just so everyone understands, are you referring to clause 4 on page 11 of Bill C‑13?

[Chantal Terrien]

I am talking about clause 4 on page 4 of Bill C‑13.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Okay.

[Chantal Terrien]

The federal government's duty is outlined in what would be the new section 2.3 of the act.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Is it possible to show us where it is in the bill? I can't find that section.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Ms. Terrien, could you repeat the connection you are making between Mr. Serré's subamendment and the clause you are referring to on page 4 of Bill C‑13?

[Chantal Terrien]

The connection I'm making is that the subamendment and the amendment we're talking about are related to one of the commitments in part VII of the Official Languages Act, which allows the government to act, yes, but always in cooperation with the provinces and territories.

In this case, I refer you to the new section 2.3 that clause 4 of Bill C‑13 would add to the Official Languages Act to require the Minister of Canadian Heritage to establish a process for the federal government to implement the commitment set out in the new subsection 41(4) of the act proposed in the bill. The latter subsection, which is the subject of the amendment we are currently studying, would be found in part VII of the act.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Mr. Chair, I am amazed that they are trying to convince us that the word “estimate” is stronger than the word “enumeration”.

For the purposes of discussion, I will read both definitions. According to Google, the word “estimate” means the action of estimating, of determining the value or price that one attributes to something. As for the word “enumeration”, it is the action of counting, of drawing up an inventory, of taking a census—the enumeration of fortunes in a country, for example. In Canada, things are not going well in this regard, because the government has run up large deficits, but that's another story.

Personally, I find it hard to understand that officials are trying to convince us that school boards can send us lists, that it is to their advantage to do so, that we can rely on them and that we will shape our approach around the benefits the school boards get from sharing them. That is what I heard earlier from my colleague Mr. Serré. In my opinion, a federal act must provide the necessary tools to be as independent as possible.

Ms. Boyer, you said earlier that the chief statistician had a lot of power. If he were not obliged to request data from elsewhere and if he could carry out this enumeration himself on a regular basis, it would be a tool.

However, the act does not say that the census is the only thing. It provides that the federal government has a duty to do an enumeration. I know that the departments have the jurisdiction to do so. You will find the tools to do the enumeration. So stop trying to sell us the idea that “estimate” is a stronger word than “enumeration”: in my opinion, and with all due respect to the public service, it is not logical.

This week, I spoke with representatives of the Fédération nationale des conseils scolaires francophones, who reminded me of the importance of enumeration. We're talking about lists and the benefits that school boards would get from sharing them. However, even the latter say that this is not enough and that it must be enshrined in the act. The Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne has also requested that it be.

So I do not understand why the Liberal Party is introducing a subamendment to weaken the act and do a disservice to minorities across Canada. Is this an indication of the dissension that exists within this party, as we have seen in the news over the past few days and weeks?

This morning, the member for Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook—