Official Languages Committee on March 31st, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Welcome to meeting number 56 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Official Languages.

I want to let the committee members know that all members went through the required sounds tests before the meeting.

Pursuant to the order of reference of Monday, May 30, 2022, the committee is resuming consideration of Bill C-13, An Act to amend the Official Languages Act, to enact the Use of French in Federally Regulated Private Businesses Act and to make related amendments to other Acts.

This meeting fulfills the conditions of the motion adopted on March 10 to add 6.5 hours of sitting time in order to debate the clauses and amendments to Bill C-13.

At the next meeting on Tuesday, April 18, item 6 of the motion passed on December 1, 2022, will be implemented as follows:

...all other amendments submitted to the committee shall be deemed moved. It is also moved that the chair shall put the question, forthwith and successively, without further debate on all other clauses and amendments submitted to the committee, as well as each and every question necessary to dispose of clause-by-clause consideration of the bill, as well as all questions necessary to report the bill to the House and to order the chair to report the bill to the House...

I again welcome the officials who were with us this morning. The Department of Canadian Heritage is represented by Julie Boyer, Marcel Fallu and Chantal Terrien. Warren J. Newman is here representing the Department of Justice. A special welcome to the Treasury Board Secretariat representatives, Karim Adam and Daniel Cadieux, as this is their first time at committee. They are replacing Carsten Quell. It takes two people to replace Mr. Quell, and that is saying something.

We are resuming consideration of clause 49 of the bill. This morning, before the meeting adjourned, I had ruled amendment CPC-53 out of order.

We will now move on to amendment CPC-54.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Newman, from the Department of Justice, my remarks are in response to the comments you made just before we adjourned this morning.

Before I introduce this amendment, I want to ask your advice. What path could we take to ensure that Canada's governor general and the provincial lieutenant governors are required to be proficient in both official languages? Amendment CPC-54 deals with the lieutenant governor of New Brunswick.

What do you think would be the best path forward in this regard?

[Warren Newman, Senior General Counsel, Constitutional, Administrative and International Law Section, Public Law and Legislative Services Sector, Department of Justice]

I don't know that it's really my place to suggest the path—

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

I have every confidence in your opinion.

[Warren Newman]

I spoke about a framework—

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Point of order, Mr. Chair.

I would like to ask a question about procedure. We are supposed to be talking about amendments, not debating. Is amendment CPC-54 going to be moved? There is no need to ask a question before moving an amendment.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

I'm going to take a short break to consult with some people.

The floor is yours, Mr. Godin.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Mr. Chair, if I am wrong, I am wrong. I respect the procedures and I will comply with them.

It is important to understand that we were given certain information during the meeting this morning. We've had a chance to digest it, and now we're coming back to the bill. This issue was in response to amendment CPC-53.

Amendment CPC-54 is similar, except that it deals with the lieutenant governor. There is some additional information that is relevant to the decision you will make.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

I was under the impression that Mr. Beaulieu was going to propose a change.

Mr. Godin, the question is whether you are moving amendment CPC-54.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

I think you need to answer Mr. Serré first.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

The question is whether we are debating amendment CPC-54. Is it moved or not?

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Our colleague asked you a question about procedure, whether I am allowed to do what I just did, which is to ask a question before I move my amendment. I will decide after your answer whether I will move it or not.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

All right.

I will respond to Mr. Serré and that will have implications for you, Mr. Godin. You must follow procedure.

As a matter of curiosity, it is your right to ask questions to guide you in proposing an amendment. Once the amendment has been moved, however, it is not up to the officials to answer questions.

I return to Mr. Serré's point of order. I agree with him. What you did is not allowed because that is not how it is done.

Are you going to move amendment CPC-54 or not? Maybe we can get into the debate afterwards.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Mr. Chair, I understand that, procedurally, what I did is not how things are done.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

If I understood correctly, what you wanted to do was to ask for advice before proposing an amendment.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

In fact, it was a continuation of this morning's discussion.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

That discussion is over.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

I know that, but it is exceptional for us to sit twice in the same day. That must be taken into consideration.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Excellent.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

That is fine, Mr. Chair. I will move amendment CPC-54.

Mr. Newman, hopefully you have taken note of my question; otherwise, I can repeat it.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Excellent.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

I would now like to move amendment CPC‑54, which is consistent with what we have done all along regarding this official languages bill.

I move that Bill C‑13, in clause 49, be amended by adding after line 28 on page 37 the following:

91.1 The Lieutenant Governor of New Brunswick or any other person appointed by the Governor in Council who is responsible for representing His Majesty in that province must be able to speak and understand clearly both official languages at the time of their appointment.

That is my amendment. I would now like to convince my colleagues to vote for it, because I think it is important.

At the previous meeting, earlier today, we heard that the only likely way to impose this requirement would be within the context of someone being appointed by the cabinet and the Prime Minister.

I simply want to give us the tools to make the process more rigorous, because chances are that none of us members will be here when the next governor general is appointed. In any case, the odds aren't great. Therefore, I think it's important to have the tools to build in that bilingualism requirement, for that position or elsewhere.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Mr. Godin, when we discussed amendment CPC‑53, I read you a note saying that CPC‑53, CPC‑54, and LIB‑36 were roughly equivalent. Since amendment CPC‑53 was ruled out of order, the same reasoning applies to amendment CPC‑54, which is also out of order.

I am summarizing, at your suggestion, because you said earlier that we should move on to the next amendment. However, if you prefer, I can read the exact ruling of the Chair: It is identical.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Mr. Chair, I just want to clarify. You said that the three amendments were almost or substantially the same. However, they are not identical, and that is why I ventured.

I do not support your position, and I am going to do exactly the same thing as before, which is to challenge your decision.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

I ruled the amendment out of order and you are challenging the Chair's ruling.

Let's take a vote on upholding the Chair's ruling that amendment CPC‑54 is out of order.

(Ruling of the chair sustained: yeas 6; nays 5.)