Official Languages Committee on March 2nd, 2022

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

My questions are for the Quebec Employers Council representatives.

As Mr. Blackburn pointed out in his opening statement, there's something peculiar about immigration: Quebec is trying to retain French-speaking students while Canada is forcing them to leave. That is understandable when we have full employment, but we are in the midst of a labour shortage.

Mr. Blackburn, can you tell us what percentage of immigration is needed to address the labour shortage, and what percentage is necessary for training and education? I'm talking about immigration and francophone immigration.

Can you give us an overview of the potential solutions identified by the Quebec Employers Council and by Quebec's 70,000 employers? That would help the government provide better support to manufacturers.

[Karl Blackburn]

Here are some figures from the assessment done by Quebec's department of labour, employment and social solidarity in 2017. It conducted the assessment in response to the void resulting from the retirement of nearly 1.4 million workers. First, 50% of the replacement workforce would need to be drawn from the academic world. This meant people who either were in school or could use some training to enhance their skills. Second, 25% had a less direct connection to the job market. This meant members of first nations, persons with disabilities, women, seniors who wanted to continue working, individuals with a criminal record and so forth. Lastly, 2% to 3% would come from technological investment and robotics.

Nevertheless, immigrants accounted for nearly a quarter of the replacement workforce. In 2017, the number of immigrants needed was 64,000 annually. Unfortunately, the actual figure has always been well below 64,000 a year.

The Quebec government set clear targets, but the fact remains that we haven't been able to meet the targets set in 2017. The Canadian government just released the figures of its immigration levels plan for the next few years. Proportionally, that would mean nearly 98,000 immigrants coming to Quebec.

As you can see, we are nowhere near that.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Mr. Blackburn, if I recall correctly, Quebec needs to take in between 40,000 and 46,000 immigrants.

[Karl Blackburn]

That's right, but the targets are a bit higher. In 2018, the figure was 44,000 immigrants. In 2019, the target was 31,000, and in 2020, the number was 21,000. The figures still hover around those levels.

This year, the applications of immigrants already in Quebec were processed on an expedited basis, so they aren't newcomers.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

What's peculiar is the fact that the figures are declining. You said that Quebec needed to take in 98,000 immigrants to meet its needs. It takes 26 to 27 months for an application to be processed. On top of that, we aren't bringing in enough francophones to address the declining population.

Is that right?

[Karl Blackburn]

That's exactly right.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

What solutions should we put in place to deal with the situation properly? On a human level, the situation is quite peculiar, especially for those from African countries. As you mentioned, the federal government isn't processing those applications as quickly. How can we force the federal government to do something?

We heard from officials from the Department of Citizenship and Immigration, but I have to tell you that their remarks were rather disappointing. How can we resolve this? Give us ideas to include in our report, ideas the government can draw on to develop tools for the Quebec Employers Council and francophone immigration in Canada overall.

[Karl Blackburn]

I'm going to ask my colleague Denis Hamel to answer that, but before I do, I'm going to venture into more political territory.

I can see the political will exists, but unfortunately, that will doesn't translate into action at the bureaucratic level. The government needs to walk the talk.

I will now ask Mr. Hamel to give you some real examples of problems related to applications and the transfer of files. Fixing these problems would speed up the process considerably.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

You have 30 seconds.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Sorry, Mr. Hamel, but I'd like to continue speaking with Mr. Blackburn.

Mr. Blackburn, you said there was political will. I'm not sure whether you are aware, but an immigration bill was introduced yesterday. It doesn't really address the problem. While it does set out some measures, it doesn't include mechanisms and tools that would help the situation in the short term.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Godin. Sorry, but I have to stop you there.

Next on the list is the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Official Languages, Marc Serré.

Mr. Serré, you have six minutes. Go ahead.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My sincerest thanks to the witnesses for being with us today.

My first question is for Mr. Zahoui.

First, I want to commend you on the work you do at the Centre de santé communautaire du Grand Sudbury. Your organization delivers health and education programs, as well as programs for the homeless in the downtown area. Thank you.

My questions are for you, Mr. Zahoui, because you went to Collège Boréal and you worked for the francophone immigration support network Réseau du Nord. You also worked in immigration at the community health centre. That makes you someone with not only student experience, but also work experience. I'd like to know what your recommendations for the federal government are when it comes to recruitment.

What can the federal government do to bring more francophones to Sudbury?

You talked about employment retention, but you also talked about socio-economic, housing, health and education supports, which fall under provincial jurisdiction. I'm interested in your specific recommendations. You mentioned visa offices. That's an important component.

Do you have other recommendations to support recruitment and retention?

[Moïse Zahoui]

These offices are very important.

In northern Ontario, many people come from sub-Saharan Africa. However, when they arrive here, they must go through an obstacle course, as there are no visa offices or pre-departure services in their respective countries. Sometimes, people from West Africa must travel to Senegal, where the only office is located. The situation is painful for them.

Northern Ontario has specific needs in terms of recruitment. Various regions of Ontario have their own needs, and it often happens that the recruited individuals do not meet the needs on the ground. That is the main issue. We would benefit from the government adopting a policy based on local needs. That would enable us to recruit people who directly meet our needs, and whom we could integrate directly.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

These are specific recommendations. One criterion that helps students come is their intention to return to their country. Do you think that is a barrier? Do you think the Government of Canada should remove that criterion?

[Moïse Zahoui]

Absolutely.

We are indeed realizing that this is a barrier. Very interesting people come here, start to contribute to the development of our francophone community and become essential players. Those people give us hope, but unfortunately, once they earn their degree, they can no longer contribute to our community and bring that fresh perspective and that warmth. We get to know them and we lose them, which is unfortunate for us.

If we want to achieve the 4.4% target while in a deficit, we have to implement mechanisms that facilitate achieving the target.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

We are talking about northern Ontario. You mentioned that the IRCC office had closed in 2012, in Sudbury. But northern Ontario accounts for 90% of Ontario's total surface area.

Why is it important to have an immigration office in Sudbury?

[Moïse Zahoui]

It is very important.

I usually say that Sudbury is the capital of the north. We are surrounded by a number of towns and we are working really hard to attract newcomers. We realize that the process international students seeking permanent residence have to follow forces them to drive for hours. When they arrive in the south, they must be able to pay for a hotel. It is complicated for them. We had a dramatic situation with a family of refugee claimants whose members unfortunately lost their lives.

We feel that those are very important aspects. If we had an office in our community, it would facilitate the task for those people who have to go through all those steps, and that would help them integrate more easily.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

One of the recommendations previously made by the Assemblée de la francophonie de l'Ontario was to have the federal government transfer immigration powers to the province of Ontario.

Do you have any relevant comments or suggestions?

What kind of interactions are you having with the provincial nominee program, PNP?

Would you have any comments on your interactions with the province of Ontario, recommendations involving things that are working well or measures the federal government could implement?

Do you think powers should be transferred to the province?

[Moïse Zahoui]

That would be really good, but as part of [technical difficulties]. We have noted that we are really struggling. We are in a minority situation, and we would need referencing.

We are actually losing a lot of francophones we welcome here because our services may not be visible enough. If the province is to make progress, we will need to come to an agreement, establish communications to take all of our needs into consideration. We must have visibility so that anglophone organizations would refer francophones to us. I am not saying this must be imposed, but that option must be given to people. That way, everyone will be able to receive the support they need in the language of their choice. Without that, we won't be able to achieve our goals.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

I'm sorry, but I must interrupt you, Mr. Serré and Mr. Zahoui.

We will now give the floor to Mr. Beaulieu for four minutes.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I thank our two witnesses.

Mr. Blackburn, I thought your presentation was very good.

You are on the Conseil du patronat du Québec, the Quebec employers council, but as a manager, if your business or your employees do not achieve their objectives year after year, what will you do?

[Karl Blackburn]

We will change the process.

It is often said that, in an action plan, it is important to have objectives that can be targeted, quantified and measured. We often hear the expression, anything that can be measured can be controlled. So, in a context where we are unfortunately not achieving targets year after year, one of two things is to blame: either the targets are poorly set, or the internal process for achieving them is badly organized, and the process must absolutely be reviewed.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

It seems to me there should be a way to send a message about fostering francophone immigration. So the criteria must be modified and something must be done.

In terms of temporary resident permits and study permits, as you said, the refusal rates are currently much higher in the countries of the francophonie, and especially in African countries. In addition, for the same countries of origin, the refusal rates are higher for students heading to francophone universities than for those going to anglophone universities.

So there is a problem somewhere. I think there is a lack of political will, and this is not just a matter of legislation. When you want employees to head in a certain direction, there is always a way to make that happen.

[Karl Blackburn]

Mr. Beaulieu, an issue seems to be negatively affecting francophone immigration.

You will remember that, a few weeks ago, when we met for the first time, I talked to you a lot about the will to develop the economic francophonie with our partners from a number of francophone countries. We were more than 27 francophone countries, in August 2021, in Paris, for the annual meeting of francophone entrepreneurs. We wanted to create and launch an organization that would help that economic francophonie thrive around the world.

I also told you that, in late March, we will officially launch a new global organization, which will aim to promote and prioritize the economic francophonie. The Conseil du patronat du Québec will play a key role in that new organization, and it will certainly be an important element for Canada, within that francophonie, to be able to not only play an important gateway role for all francophone entrepreneurs of the globe, but also to be usable as a springboard for those who want to develop the economic francophonie around the world. We are extremely happy about this new organization.

However—and you did well to mention this—if anything is currently not working in the federal public servants' offices, we must give power to—