Official Languages Committee on May 6th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

I call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 98 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Official Languages.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3) and the motion adopted by the committee on Wednesday, September 20, 2023, the committee is resuming its study on federal funding for minority–language post-secondary institutions.

Given the recommended changes to how we handle earpieces, among other things, I'm going to take a few minutes to go over the instructions so that we can avoid audio feedback incidents. Before we begin, I would like to remind all members and other in-person participants of the important preventative measures indicated in the communiqué from the Speaker to all members on Monday, April 29.

The following measures have been taken to prevent disruptive—and potentially harmful—audio feedback incidents that could cause injuries.

We remind all in-person participants to keep their earpieces away from all microphones at all times. All earpieces have been replaced by a model which greatly reduces the probability of audio feedback. The new earpieces are black in colour, whereas the former earpieces were grey. Please use only a black approved earpiece. By default, all unused earpieces will be unplugged at the start of a meeting. When you are not using your earpiece, please place it face down, on the middle of the round sticker that you see in front of you on the table, where indicated. Please consult the card on the table for guidelines to prevent audio feedback incidents. The layout in the room has been adapted to keep the microphones further apart and reduce the risk of audio feedback.

These measures are in place so that we can conduct our business without interruption and to protect the health and safety of all participants, including the interpreters. I'm taking the time to mention this because we recently learned that the audio feedback problems causing injuries to interpreters were around long before the pandemic and are not necessarily caused by the Zoom or Teams platforms. The injuries were being caused by the equipment in committee meeting rooms.

When and only when I give you the floor, the microphone will light up so that you can speak. This will keep several people from talking at the same time.

I'm being told that there is an interpretation problem. We will therefore briefly suspend the meeting.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

We will now resume the meeting, as it seems that the problem has been resolved.

Mr. Carrie, welcome to the committee.

Pursuant to our routine motion, I wish to inform the committee that all witnesses participating in the meeting by video conference completed the required sound tests in advance of the meeting.

I would now like to welcome our witnesses for the first hour of our study. We have Professor Stéphanie Chouinard from the Royal Military College, Queen's University, as well as Mr. Zundel, president and chief executive officer, Collège communautaire du Nouveau‑Brunswick, who is joining us by video conference. Since they are committee regulars, they know how things work.

Madam and Sir, you have a maximum of five minutes each for your opening remarks. Then we will go to questions from members. I remind you that I'm very strict about speaking time because if we stick to it we will be able to complete two rounds of questions. I would ask you to respect the time given to you.

Professor Chouinard, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Stéphanie Chouinard, Professor, Royal Military College, Queen's University, As an Individual]

Mr. Chair, vice-chairs and members of the committee, thank you for having me here today to discuss funding for minority French-language post-secondary institutions.

I'd like to draw your attention to the federal government's new obligations under Part VII of the Official Languages Act and, above all, to how they will be implemented. I will focus my remarks on three factors: sharing jurisdiction, making funding sustainable and strengthening our institutions.

First, although post-secondary education is now explicitly named in the act as a crucial driver of vitality in our communities, first and foremost it remains a provincial jurisdiction. So I believe it's essential for the federal government to come to an agreement with the provinces to ensure that federal funding remains supplementary funding and that it does not result in proportionate divestment from minority institutions by the provinces, which would take us back to square one. Funding must also be provided at the agreed-upon time, so that institutions can properly manage their resources. Finally, the funding granted must adequately address the needs of the institutions that serve our communities, which means they must participate in federal-provincial negotiations.

As we've known for a long time, the official languages in education program is a frankly imperfect funding distribution tool that allows abuses by some provinces, which reallocate funds for core funding or fail to take community priorities into account in the way they spend the funds. Let's try to learn from our mistakes and make sure that the public funds spent on post-secondary education will be put to good use.

Second, to make a difference, this funding will need to be sustainable. A solid foundation in post-secondary education can't be built on a project-by-project basis. We can't set up laboratories or programs that will have a real impact if we're not sure we'll have the funding to keep them going for more than four or five years.

It would also be hard to talk about funding without mentioning the issue of international students. With all due respect to Minister Miller, the Canadian francophonie's institutions are not largely responsible for the abuses of the system we're witnessing. They're not the bad actors, and yet they're punished just as severely as other institutions. Worse still, the minister's decision not to make these institutions exempt from permit caps goes against his department's priorities based on the francophone immigration policy.

Let's also assume that if we gave francophone institutions the means to be as competitive in the post-secondary education market as the majority institutions, they would need less supplementary funding from the federal government. I commend the members of the Association des collèges et universités de la francophonie canadienne for the complaint they filed with the Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages on this matter. I don't want to put myself in Commissioner Théberge's shoes, but I sincerely hope that he will find the complaint to be founded.

Finally, the new version of Part VII of the Official Languages Act and the action plan for official languages 2023-2028 both mention the need to protect and promote the community's strong institutions. I invite you to start thinking about the indicators that will determine what exactly constitutes a strong post-secondary institution. This terminology raises concerns for some of our existing institutions, which could hardly be described as strong since they are weakened by a chronic lack of funding, among other things. However, these institutions are necessary because they are often the only ones in their community to offer training in French.

How will the new version of the act take into account their reality on the ground, including their multiple governance arrangements, among other things, since some of our institutions are not homogenous francophone or fully independent institutions? Take, for example, the Office of Francophone and Francophile Affairs affiliated with Simon Fraser University or Glendon College, which is affiliated with York University.

In short, I feel we need to think about how we will determine who deserves funding and for what reasons in order to truly support the development of francophone minority communities.

Thank you. I look forward to discussing these issues with you.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Professor Chouinard. You gave your speech in four minutes, which is perfect.

Mr. Zundel, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Pierre Zundel, President and Chief Executive Officer, Collège communautaire du Nouveau-Brunswick]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Members of Parliament, thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today on behalf of the Collège communautaire du Nouveau-Brunswick, or CCNB, regarding federal funding for minority-language post-secondary institutions.

The CCNB has more than 90 programs of study and has admitted 2,324 students this year. By cultivating an inclusive and diverse environment, the CCNB makes a significant contribution to the demographic, economic, social and cultural development of the province of New Brunswick.

You are no doubt already aware that due to a delay, we haven't yet concluded our new funding agreement and are waiting for the details on funding from the official languages in education program. Our core funding agreement ended in March 2023, and since then we've been twice informed that the agreement has been extended. As a result, we have no information on how much funding will be granted to us under the agreement—which was to be renewed in 2023—and on the distribution of the funds set out in the action plan for official languages for post-secondary institutions.

This federal funding is crucial for our institution. In particular, it will enable us to carry out a major exercise to modernize our internal systems, and another to transform our programs of study and the services we offer to support the recruitment and retention of our student population. We've used federal funding to start making significant changes to our curriculum, with a focus on skills development. In addition to enhancing our graduates' competency profile, this approach makes our program delivery more flexible. For example, we can offer combined micro-certifications that result in full certification in a single discipline, and we can serve multiple cohorts in the same program at the same time.

Ultimately, this helps us to better meet employers' needs by enabling our students to keep their jobs at the same company throughout their studies, and to provide a larger number of graduates per year who are ready to enter the labour market immediately. Students also benefit because it's a great advantage for them to be able to better align their training with their ability to work.

Our college provides training on five campuses in the francophone regions of New Brunswick. The delivery of college programs in rural areas poses particular challenges. Economies of scale are much easier to achieve in urban areas than our rural areas. Our fixed costs remain high, while our revenue depends on how many students we can admit to our programs.

As a result, the current funding formula and delayed confirmation are preventing us from fully moving forward with our modernization initiative and hindering our ability to develop and implement our efficiency practices. They are also jeopardizing the student experience at the CCNB. That's why we would like to see special projects funding integrated into institutions' core funding to avoid this kind of problem in the future.

Finally, since your study is also about how influential welcoming international students can be, I'd like to tell you about a new reality at our institution. Historically, college students from New Brunswick have had a strong tendency not to travel more than 80 kilometres from their home to enrol in our programs. They often prefer to change programs rather than move to another region, either for financial reasons or due to complications in their lives, or because they have children at home. A major challenge for us regarding international students is that they need housing, whereas our Canadian students do not. So that would require a significant investment in residences.

With that, I will conclude my presentation. I'll be pleased to answer your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Zundel.

We will now begin the first round of questions. Each political party will have six minutes.

I now give the floor to the first vice-chair of this committee, Mr. Godin, of the Conservative Party of Canada.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like you to stop the clock, because I'll take this opportunity to table a motion. I believe you received it on Friday afternoon. Our witnesses are probably familiar with this type of procedure in the House of Commons.

I'm tabling this motion because of the news last week and the observation made about the Minister of Official Languages. Unfortunately, he and his firm are receiving money in connection with lobbying activities. I think the Minister of Official Languages is both judge and jury.

The motion reads as follows: That, given the recent allegations that Minister Randy Boissonnault tried to hide that he was getting payments from his lobbying firm while it was lobbying his own government, and he is currently the Minister responsible for Official Languages, who reports to this committee, the committee invites the Minister to appear for no less than two hours.

We could have invited the Minister of Canadian Heritage, but she doesn't accept our invitations. She claims that the minister—

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Stick to your motion, please, Mr. Godin.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

The notice of motion has been moved, Mr. Chair, and I'm defending the importance of the motion.

We know that Edmonton International Airport received more than $100 million as a result of lobbying activities by the firm that is partly owned by the Minister of Employment, Workforce Development and Official Languages. I think it would be appropriate to hear from the minister here at the Standing Committee—

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

—on Official Languages, and that we be able to ask him questions. I think it would be relevant—

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

One moment, please, Mr. Godin.

Something's ringing in our earpieces. I'm going to ask people to turn off their telephones, because it's really a problem. The interpreters' hearing injuries are happening in committee meeting rooms, and nowhere else. We have to be careful.

Mr. Serré, do you have a point of order?

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

May I finish before I give the floor to someone else?

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

We have to stop talking at the same time and respect what is being said.

Mr. Godin, we have a point of order. We'll hear that point of order and then I'll come back to you.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I just wanted to make sure that Mr. Godin realizes that we have witnesses—

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Mr. Serré, just a moment, please.

I would ask everyone not to speak until I give them the floor.

Mr. Godin, turn off your mike, please. You aren't the problem, but be careful: A microphone that's on can create something called Larsen effect.

Mr. Serré, I'm sorry, but what you just said is not a point of order.

Mr. Godin, please continue.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

I believe the Standing Committee on Official Languages is the place to debate the issue I've raised. That's why I'm introducing this motion, which proposes that we invite the minister so we can ask him questions.

He is both judge and jury, because he's part of a government that allocates funding. It's a bit like Minister Duclos, whose job is protected at Laval University while he gives money to the university as Minister of Public Services and Procurement. I feel the people have a right to know these things.

So I'd like to move this motion and see if my colleagues want to know the truth about this situation.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Mr. Drouin, you have the floor.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

I always respect my colleagues' motions.

However, I know that the Minister of Official Languages was not behind the transaction, because he's an honourable man. As every honest person knows, MPs, ministers and lobbyists are not allowed to use allocated funds. It's totally illegal. My colleague, Mr. Boissonnault, is certainly very aware of the rules, because the law changed in 2006, when Mr. Harper was in power. I'm sure he checked. There are rules that I, as a parliamentary secretary, have to follow every year, rules governing who I do business with, my assets and my debts. I report everything to the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner.

I don't see how this issue has anything to do with the Standing Committee on Official Languages. If this is an ethical issue, then I don't think it's up to the Standing Committee on Official Languages to debate it, unless the transaction took place in the context of a contract whose funds are administered or granted by the official languages department. I know that the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics may deal with it.

I just want to say that the needs in minority language communities are great. I respect Mr. Boissonnault, but the situation he's talking about at the moment is not one of those needs. The ethics committee will have to make up its mind about that. If there's a problem, maybe we should let the Ethics Commissioner deal with it, but it's not up to the Standing Committee on Official Languages.

I respect Mr. Godin. We're on the same page when it comes to advocating for the francophonie internationally, a subject on which we always agree. We can sometimes dig in our heels here at the Official Languages Committee, though.

On that note, could we set Mr. Boissonnault's situation aside and debate it at another time, when we don't have any witnesses with us?

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Drouin.

I took a good look at the motion when we received it. I did my homework, as you might expect. I'm ready to rule on the motion, but I'm open to hearing from other people who would like to speak to it.

Mr. Godin, do you wish to respond?

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Mr. Chair, I want to point out two things.

First, Mr. Drouin mentioned that this is an Ethics Committee matter, but that doesn't mean we can't address it here. It's true that the Ethics Committee has to look at the situation, but I believe the Standing Committee on Official Languages can do so as well, because, according to Canadian Heritage, the Minister of Official Languages is the minister responsible for enforcing the Official Languages Act.

There may be a conflict of interest, as the Global News article suggested, because the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner condemned the actions of Xennex Venture Catalysts. Another Alberta company, Navis Group, whose legal company number I will spare you, pays the minister money. That raises some questions, and I think Canadians need to know what's being done with their money. I think it's important for official language communities to know that.

Are ministers losing or gaining money? I couldn't say, because I don't have the information to answer that question. However, I think it would be appropriate for the ministers to appear before us and explain.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Godin.

Ms. Koutrakis, the floor is yours.

[Annie Koutrakis, Liberal, Vimy, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I agree with everything Mr. Drouin said, so I won't waste any more time debating this motion, and I think we should vote on it.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

I'll be deciding that, Ms. Koutrakis. We're going to finish hearing from people who had their hands up. Then I'll decide, and we'll see if there has to be a vote or not.

Mrs. Kusie, you have the floor.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I understand Mr. Drouin's comments, but the fact remains that Mr. Boissonnault is still the Minister of Official Languages. He must therefore fulfill his responsibilities in that capacity. The situation will have an impact on another committee that will have to examine it, but the minister must nevertheless take responsibility and appear before us to explain what this is all about. It's just as much his committee as it is ours.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.