Evidence of meeting #24 for Official Languages in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was draft.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

Désilets  Managing Director, Société Santé en français
Léger  Full Professor, As an Individual
Juneau  Chair, Fédération culturelle canadienne-française
Henrie-Cadieux  Director, Strategy and government relations, Fédération culturelle canadienne-française
Rémillard  Executive Director , Fédération des associations de juristes d'expression française de common law inc.
Poliquin  Legal Advisor, Fédération culturelle canadienne-française

The Chair Liberal Yvan Baker

Colleagues, welcome to meeting number 24 of the Standing Committee on Official Languages.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the order of reference of Tuesday, December 9, 2025, we are continuing our study of the official languages regulations on the advancement of equality of status and use of English and French.

I would now like to welcome the witnesses.

We have, as an individual, Antoine Désilets, managing director of the Société Santé en français, as well as Rémi Léger, full professor.

You will each have five minutes for your opening remarks.

Mr. Godin, do you have a question?

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

Joël Godin Conservative Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC

Before we proceed with the witnesses' statements, Mr. Chair, I have a few technical questions to ask to make it easier for my colleagues and me to understand.

I want some clarification following the publication of the Canada Gazette. I know you won't have the answer, but would it be possible to give instructions to the clerk so that we can get the answers?

The official languages administrative monetary penalties regulations were published in the Canada Gazette, and some information differs.

For example, in the preamble, the background or the explanation, type C fines are identified as ranging from a minimum of $10,000 to $50,000 in the Gazette, but in the draft regulations, they are set at $5,000 to $50,000. That's one example, and I have others.

I don't understand why the draft regulations were changed during the consultation process and why things were included that had been corrected. That may be the intention of the department, but at this point, I would simply like to understand whether this is a normal practice or whether any typos have slipped into the Canada Gazette.

Would it be possible, Mr. Chair, to ask the clerk to check whether this is procedurally correct?

The Chair Liberal Yvan Baker

Mr. Deschênes‑Thériault, would you like to speak?

Guillaume Deschênes-Thériault Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB

I understand that a letter will be sent to the clerk this week to clarify the issue Mr. Godin highlighted. We should receive a letter this week to clarify this issue, which will then be sent to the clerk.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

Joël Godin Conservative Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC

I understand, but what I would like is for the clerk to take the necessary steps to get the information. What I understand, Mr. Deschênes‑Thériault, is that you probably detected this error earlier in the process and that the information will be shared with our colleagues.

In fact, I understand your intervention, but I am raising this in committee because I want to make sure that the information is in compliance, that it is sent to the clerk and that it is in harmony with House of Commons Procedure and Practice.

Thank you for that additional information.

If the letter we intend to send to the committee meets our needs, so much the better. If not, I would ask that the clerk explore this further.

The Chair Liberal Yvan Baker

Okay.

I have just consulted the clerk, and she advises me that she can ask the department to clarify things and explain why this is the case.

I haven't seen the differences you mentioned, but if the information differs, it would be a matter of explaining why that is the case. As a committee, we can move forward with this new information and with the letter that will, of course, be sent.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

Joël Godin Conservative Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC

First, Mr. Chair, you'll appreciate that it's new for all parliamentarians to be working on regulations. The last time there were regulations for the Official Languages Act, they weren't discussed here, because the committee had decided that. Right now, however, we have decided to study it because we want to improve it.

Second, would it be possible to update us on the list of witnesses for the part of the act that concerns us, namely, part VII? We'd like to know if we have any witnesses left and how many meetings we have left. Based on the work that has already been done, we should have a schedule to see if there is room to hear other witnesses. There was a request and my colleague asked me to explore the possibility of adding a witness.

Personally, I'm very open to that, but if it's not possible, I'm going to ask that we use the witness's testimony at the Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages, that we add it to our evidence and that it be considered in drafting our recommendations.

The Chair Liberal Yvan Baker

As I understand it—and I'd ask the clerk to correct me if I'm wrong—we have this two-hour meeting today with witnesses, and then Thursday's meeting, which is scheduled for the first hour with witnesses on part VII of the Official Languages Act. Then we'll be done with witnesses.

Madam Clerk, can you give us an update on Thursday's witnesses? I don't think we sent a notice for that meeting.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

Joël Godin Conservative Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC

Mr. Chair, I don't want the names of the witnesses. At this point, it's not necessary. We respected the distribution among the three parties and covered everything.

In order to give the clerk instructions, may I ask my colleagues if they want to add witnesses for this study on the part VII regulations or if it's complete?

The Chair Liberal Yvan Baker

The clerk informs me that two witnesses are already scheduled for Thursday. If we don't add any meetings, and we keep only today's meeting and the one-hour meeting on Thursday, we'll have room for one more witness on Thursday. There will be three witnesses in the first panel.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Joël Godin Conservative Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC

Whose witness is it?

The Chair Liberal Yvan Baker

Right now, there are two. I don't know whose it is.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Joël Godin Conservative Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC

No, I was asking about the breakdown.

The Chair Liberal Yvan Baker

Right now, from what I understand, if we don't add anyone, we are already respecting the proportions of all the parties. If we wanted to add someone on Thursday, my proposal would be that all parties agree to do so.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Joël Godin Conservative Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC

I would like to suggest Stéphanie Chouinard. I think my Liberal colleague agrees with this. There may be a vote if necessary, but we'll win it with the Liberals and the Conservatives.

Mario Beaulieu Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC

It would require unanimous consent, if I'm not mistaken.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Joël Godin Conservative Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC

No, no, there's still—

Mario Beaulieu Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC

I'm not objecting.

The Chair Liberal Yvan Baker

If everyone agrees, we can add her as an invited witness.

Mr. Godin, did you have any other points to raise?

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Joël Godin Conservative Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC

No. You missed me, didn't you?

The Chair Liberal Yvan Baker

Not at all. It has been a long time since we raised a point of order at the beginning of the meeting, Mr. Godin.

Welcome again, witnesses. I'm sorry that we lost a bit of time, but at the same time, you can see how committee members work together.

You each have five minutes for your opening remarks, and then we will move on to questions from members.

Mr. Désilets, you have the floor for five minutes.

Antoine Désilets Managing Director, Société Santé en français

Mr. Chair, members of the committee, thank you for inviting me to appear today.

I'm speaking to you at a time when the expectations of francophone and Acadian communities are very high. After years of engagement, the modernization of the Official Languages Act was supposed to finally move us towards substantive equality of English and French in Canada.

I want to say, from the outset, that Société Santé en français fully supports the recommendations the Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne du Canada made when its representatives appeared before this committee.

Keep in mind that the purpose of regulations is to give federal institutions the tools to truly follow through on the objectives of the act. Good regulations lead to concrete measures. Ill-defined regulations open the door to ambiguity and, in day-to-day practice, the temptation to take the path of least resistance.

Allow me to share a real-life example from the health sector.

In March 2023, the federal government and the provinces signed bilateral health agreements underpinned by clear key principles, one being “equal access for equity-seeking groups and individuals, including those in official language minority communities”. That principle is laid out in black and white in all the agreements. Seldom do you see such a clear and explicit consensus between Ottawa and the provinces on health care.

However, the mismatch between those bilateral health agreements and the plans to implement them—plans developed by the provinces and approved by the federal government—is pretty glaring. In every jurisdiction but one, this principle has not translated into a single concrete measure to provide access to health care in French.

The result is simple: despite existing on paper, the principle is not implemented when decisions are being made. Nevertheless, the act requires federal institutions to take positive measures to support the vitality of communities and to take the impact of their decisions into account.

On this issue, we have seen little in the way of impact analyses or concrete measures. Billions of federal dollars are transferred to the provinces to improve access to health care, with no regard for access to health care in French.

When the Official Languages Act is not implemented, the federal government is unfortunately helping to widen the gap between the services available to the majority and those available to our communities.

Allow me to put that into context. A modernized act clearly laying out federal institutions' responsibilities to official language minority communities was in place, and an agreement in principle explicitly recognizing those communities had been ratified by all the parties. Theoretically speaking, the time was ripe for official languages to be taken into account. The results, however, are meagre.

Why is there such a gap? I will venture a very simple guess: the path of least resistance won out. In complex negotiations with the provinces, language obligations were pushed to the side.

That gives rise to a fundamental question: What is the point of principles and laws if they don't translate into concrete decisions?

The main purpose of the regulations is to give federal institutions the tools to implement the act. When I read the draft regulations, another question comes to mind: Had these regulations been in force, would they have prevented the discrepancy between the health agreement principles and actions?

Given what's in the proposed regulations, I think not. They don't truly equip federal institutions to respect their obligations in situations as complex as intergovernmental agreements. A number of elements need clarity: the definition of positive measures; the analyses federal institutions are supposed to conduct; the community consultations; and the mechanisms to measure progress towards substantive equality.

Lastly—and this is especially important—the regulations should clearly state that language obligations must be considered every step of the way when agreements are being negotiated with provinces and territories. In other words, the regulations need to give federal institutions the tools to take action not just when it's easy, but also, and more importantly, when it's hard.

As committee members, you have spent hours upon hours studying official languages, so I turn to you. If, like me, you want to see real improvements for official language minority communities in Canada, the regulations currently proposed won't cut it.

Francophone and Acadian communities spent nearly a decade working to help modernize the act, and now they expect the spirit of that act to translate into the real world. Without clear and robust regulations, the modernized act will likely make no real difference, at least not in health care.

Thank you.

The Chair Liberal Yvan Baker

Thank you, Mr. Désilets.

We will now hear Mr. Léger's opening remarks. You have five minutes.

Rémi Léger Full Professor, As an Individual

Thank you very much.

Mr. Chair, honourable members, I teach political science at Simon Fraser University, in British Columbia. For the past 15 years or so, I've been researching Canadian language policies, especially the role of Canada's francophone organizations in developing, reviewing and implementing those policies.

My remarks today will focus on three things.

First, the part VII regulations are an essential piece of the modernized Official Languages Act. They should translate Parliament's intent into the real world and make it possible to fully implement the commitments made. Without robust regulations, the modernization that began in 2018 will never be complete, unfortunately.

Regulations, by definition, help to clarify an act and guide its practical application. All acts lay out principles or general commitments. For example, subsection 41(1) of part VII requires the federal government to enhance the vitality of official language minority communities, and support and assist their development.

Those commitments can be implemented in a number of ways, so the question is this: Which one do you choose and why? What factors should inform that decision? What role should minority language organizations play in the decision-making process? Should they be consulted, and if so, how? Should they instead play a meaningful role in designing and implementing related programs? Once the decision is made, what are the mechanisms for measuring its impact on substantive equality progress?

Regulations should answer those types of questions. As my colleague said, the main purpose of regulations is to provide tools to the stakeholders and public servants responsible for implementing the act. Regulations are the tool box for the act.

Second, if regulations that give effect to an act are supposed to equip public servants, we can only conclude that the current draft regulations provide very poor tools. Basically, all they do is repeat what the act says word for word. The few clarifications it provides are, to be clear, obvious. The regulations are silent, utterly and completely silent, on the guiding principle of part VII, of the modernized act as a whole, progress towards substantive equality. I'll come back to that.

Allow me to give you an example of how the regulations tend to paraphrase the act. Paragraph 41(7)(b) of the act requires a federal institution to conduct analyses to determine “the possibilities for avoiding, or at least mitigating, the direct negative impacts that its structuring decisions may have on the commitments under subsections (1) to (3).”

Regulations are the opportunity to make clear the factors for determining whether a decision has positive or, on the contrary, negative impacts. They are also the opportunity to clearly define what a structuring decision is. However, the only light the regulations shed on that matter is that the analysis must determine whether official language minority communities are affected by the decision. I'm sorry, but having to determine whether minority communities are affected by the decision is a no-brainer. Besides that clarification, the draft regulations shed no light on paragraph 41(7)(b). An analysis of the rest of the draft regulations would lead to similar conclusions.

Third and finally, the modernized act represents a paradigm shift. Progress towards substantive equality is now the guiding principle, the centrepiece, if you will, of the Official Languages Act.

The notion of substantive equality, which should be the backbone of the regulations, is missing from the draft regulations. If the main purpose of regulations is to equip public servants to implement an act whose guiding principle is substantive equality, it is reasonable to expect the regulations to clearly state what substantive equality is, and to provide a methodology and tools to determine whether the decisions made and measures taken are effective.

In conclusion, I recommend that the committee ask Treasury Board to go back to the drawing board, with an important reminder: Parliament's intent when it modernized the act in 2023.

Thank you.

The Chair Liberal Yvan Baker

Thank you, Mr. Léger.

We will now move into questions from members.

Mr. Godin, please go ahead. You have six minutes.