Evidence of meeting #16 for Public Accounts in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was registry.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:05 p.m.
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The difficulty, as we observed, is that the centre's performance report focussed primarily on registration activities. It contained very little information on outcomes. Furthermore, it does not show a link between these activities and the strategic outcome, namely improving public safety. Rather than simply report on activities, the performance report should have been more coherent and provide more information on outcomes.
4:05 p.m.
Bloc
4:05 p.m.
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Yes. We expect performance reports to contain information on outcomes. Especially in the case of a somewhat controversial program, it would be beneficial to all parliamentarians to have more information on outcomes.
4:05 p.m.
Bloc
Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC
You also discuss the effectiveness of the information system. You point to the existence of a network of volunteer verifiers, but conclude the network isn't 100 per cent effective. You mention that verifiers can verify their own firearms.
Should this system be improved or should it be endorsed in its present form?
4:05 p.m.
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
We did in fact identify many problems with the verifiers network. Volunteers can verify their own firearms and do not always have all the required information. There is no mechanism is place to ensure the decisions made are the right ones. This problem needs to be addressed to ensure the quality of the data in the registry.
4:05 p.m.
Bloc
Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC
Exhibit 4.5 in the same report notes that the number of contracts between $24,000 and $25,000 has dropped significantly since 2000-2001, while exhibit 4.6 shows that the number of contracts below $25,000 that were amended by more than 150 per cent has also dropped significantly. According to the two exhibits, the figures for 2000-2001 are rather high.
Did you make a parallel observation? Can these figures be pooled? What transpired in 2000-2001 to produce...?
4:10 p.m.
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
The first exhibit shows the number of contracts between $24,000 and $25,000 while the second shows the number of contracts amended by more than 150 per cent. To us, these are signs of a potential problem. This type of analysis allows is to verify if there are many contracts valued at just under the $25,000 threshold and to see if it would have been possible to split up the contracts, rather than assign only one with a higher value which should have been put out to tender.
These indicators are what we call red flags. The numbers have dropped significantly. We observed that a new management team was put in place and procedures have changed significantly.
4:10 p.m.
Bloc
Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC
Therefore, there has been a clear improvement on this front.
4:10 p.m.
Liberal
4:10 p.m.
Bloc
Richard Nadeau Bloc Gatineau, QC
First of all, while we all remember clearly where we were on September 11, 2001, I also clearly recall where I was on December 6, 1989. As we all know, this event ultimately led to the creation of the firearms registry, which I fully support.
Nevertheless, I felt that someone had pulled the rug out from under me when I found out how much it had cost to set up the registry.
Perhaps I don't quite understand the meaning of the words used here, but the report refers to the performance of the gun registry. To my mind, the goal here is to save lives and avoid tragic incidents. It's difficult to say exactly how many lives have been saved because of the registry and to compare these figures with those compiled prior to the registry's existence.
I'm not trying to cast aspersions on those who are experts in numbers or accounting, but I'd like to know how you can possibly compare the performance of a program like this with another not necessarily set up with the express purpose of saving lives.
Is there some way of doing the calculations, strictly from an accounting standpoint?
4:10 p.m.
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Often, performance measurements cannot be expressed in figures. We talk about improving public safety, but it is probably quite difficult to quantify that objective. Moreover, it's difficult to establish a link between a registry and an outcome.
We do point out in the report that currently, the performance report is heavily outcome oriented, that is it looks to the number of entries in the registry and the number of times the registry is accessed by a police officer, but it does not provide any indication of how useful data of this kind actually is.
Perhaps what is needed is something as simple as surveying law enforcement agencies to see if they have used the registry and if so, if they found the information to be accurate and useful. There are methods we could explore. You could also give examples of how the registry was useful and how it helped to improve public safety.
For now, just knowing how many entries the registry contains is not particularly useful to us. We're saying that there could be several indicators specifying the outcomes achieved by the registry.
4:15 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
Merci beaucoup, Mr. Nadeau. Thank you very much, Mrs. Fraser.
Mr. Fitzpatrick, you have eight minutes.
4:15 p.m.
Conservative
Brian Fitzpatrick Conservative Prince Albert, SK
The mandate of this regime that we have in place, from what I can understand, is to improve public safety. That's its overarching goal. If I accept the premise of this whole system, it's highly reliant on quality data, and it's a typical case of garbage in, garbage out: if the information is not correct and accurate, we're going to have problems.
Now, I'm from Saskatchewan. We actually have had cases in Saskatchewan. I know an individual who registered a hair dryer. I think he probably had the action and the mode and the serial number all down pat. Another individual registered a soldering gun.
I'm curious, Mr. Martin. Maybe I'll direct the question to you. Does registering hair dryers and soldering guns somehow improve public safety, in your mind?
4:15 p.m.
Deputy Commissioner, National Police Services of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police
The question that came from Mr. Laforest a few moments ago about verifiers is one of the recommendations that came out of the Auditor General's--
4:15 p.m.
Conservative
Brian Fitzpatrick Conservative Prince Albert, SK
It's a straightforward question. Does this improve public safety, yes or no?
4:15 p.m.
Deputy Commissioner, National Police Services of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Registering firearms does. We are not supporting the registration of hair dryers or soldering guns.
4:15 p.m.
Conservative
Brian Fitzpatrick Conservative Prince Albert, SK
Right. Okay. I'm just raising the point.
There is another concern that arises. This is not an isolated case; there have been many examples. I refer to an individual named “Mom” Boucher, who I think is serving a 25-year jail sentence for murder and has a record that is quite scary. My understanding is that it was revealed at his trial that he had lawfully registered a number of pump-action shotguns and a revolver.
I'm asking you again, sir, is it good for the public safety of our country for people like “Mom” Boucher to be able to lawfully obtain possession of revolvers and pump-action shotguns?
4:15 p.m.
Deputy Commissioner, National Police Services of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police
I have no knowledge of that specific case; I'd have to look into it.
4:15 p.m.
Conservative
Brian Fitzpatrick Conservative Prince Albert, SK
How about yes or no? With your police background, do you think that would be good for public safety?
4:15 p.m.
Deputy Commissioner, National Police Services of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police
People with criminal activity, if they apply appropriately, will be denied registration.
4:15 p.m.
Conservative
Brian Fitzpatrick Conservative Prince Albert, SK
Right. Or disturbed people getting access to restricted firearms: would you agree with me that's not good for public safety either?
4:15 p.m.
Deputy Commissioner, National Police Services of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police
People who have mental stability issues.... We're getting into a very sensitive health area, but people who are not qualified to have weapons should not have them.
4:15 p.m.
Conservative
Brian Fitzpatrick Conservative Prince Albert, SK
Right, but my point is that some of these things are happening, sir.
I'm trying to emphasize the importance of the accuracy of the data in the system. I've looked at the auditor's report on the action, the mode of the firearm—I'm not sure what the hair dryer's and the soldering gun's action would be, but I guess maybe electrical—the make of the firearm, and the serial number.
On the transfers, the error rate is very high. I think any person with statistical analysis would tell you this is serious, especially when you get double-digit error rates. I think of a pilot flying into the Toronto airport who's told that the data in the air traffic control system has a 12% error rate: “But don't worry about it. Land anyway. We'll take our chances on it.”
There's a lot of error in the data in this system.