Public Accounts Committee on Sept. 26th, 2006

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Which kinds of queries cause a hit to be recorded in the system?

[François Bidal]

It's a matter of policy of that particular policing agency, so that may be an agreement. A given policing agency will decide that for a call of domestic violence or assault or what have you, as a matter of policy they will instruct their communications operators to make that check. In many cases that police officer will not have the knowledge that the check is being conducted on his or her behalf, because there was a policy decision by that chief and his management team.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Then that officer is not even using that data.

[François Bidal]

The decision has been made in that officer's best interest by his management team, for his safety and for the safety of those involved in that particular intervention.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Right, but the point I'm making is that although the officer might be involved with a citizen in a matter that has absolutely no relation to firearms ownership, the hit still registers in the system, and that's where this 5,000 number comes from. It's inaccurate to suggest that the officer has actually used the registry. Automatically it has counted as having been used, and that is where this 5,000 number is coming from.

[D/Commr Peter Martin]

If you talk to the police chiefs, I don't think they would agree with that, because on a domestic, as an example, if the--

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

We're not talking exclusively about domestic. There is a whole series. That's why I've asked you to narrow it down to all the various activities that would cause this hit to be recorded. You continually go back to domestic and other sorts of things, but what I'm being told is that these hits are being counted even when it really has absolutely nothing to do with the work the officer is conducting.

[François Bidal]

Mr. Chair, I believe there are two questions. For one the answer would be that as a matter of policy an individual department can decide the scope of when it would like that check to occur. That's one. In the other case, there are many checks, no matter what the incident, that are conducted on behalf of that police officer, for which he gives inherent trust to that communications operator, who will make a series of checks for his personal safety or for that of the public. A series of checks is conducted on every incident; in most cases the police officer doesn't ask for that entire series. Those are policy issues and operational issues that are joined up by that department.

[D/Commr Peter Martin]

As an example, we have--

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

I just want to point out, though, that the officers do not actually access the system 5,000 times a day. Am I right in saying that?

[D/Commr Peter Martin]

The officers don't, but the system is checked 5,000 times a day.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

There we go. Okay, the system is checked 5,000 times a day--

[D/Commr Peter Martin]

--for the benefit--

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

--and that statistic is being used to make a policy argument already before this committee. In fact, you've just confirmed that it is inaccurate to suggest that officers check the system 5,000 times a day.

I'd like to move on to another question, and that is with relation to the accuracy of the registry information--

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chairman.

I had mentioned this number of 5,000 per day, and I was corrected and told that in fact the number has escalated, that the correct number today is 6,500. Is it?

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

That's not a point of order; it's a point of debate.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

No, it's a point of clarification.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

We don't want to engage on points of order on all these sorts of things, because they are not points of order.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

That is not a point of order, Mr. Wrzesnewskyj.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

I trust that won't come up any more.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

We'll let the witness in this case elaborate.

Is there any difference between the 5,000 and...? What is the correct information?

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Actually, I will just raise a point of order myself, Mr. Chair.

I am questioning the witness right now. I don't know how another member can intervene and begin questioning the witness.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

We're not going to do that. This does not count on your time. We've just asked the witness to clarify the information so that everyone in the room is clear on the issue.

Very briefly, Mr. Martin, could you clarify the information?

[D/Commr Peter Martin]

The number of times the system is accessed is growing on a daily basis. The exact number as of the second quarter of 2006 is 6,699.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Mr. Poilievre, you have 45 seconds.