Public Accounts Committee on Oct. 17th, 2006

[RAdm Tyrone Pile]

Grosso modo, we have four years to go. Multiply that by 6,000 and it's about 24,000.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you very much, Mr. Christopherson.

Thank you, Admiral Pile.

Mrs. Ratansi, you have five minutes, followed by Mr. Williams.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

I'd like to carry on with the question I asked previously, and on that you gave a response to a previous questioner. You're mandated to do certain things, and with the change in geopolitics and in what nature brings you—it brings you disaster, tsunamis, earthquakes, etc.—the military has been very responsive. Now the geopolitics have changed and you're going into different theatres.

My question is, how do you guarantee that you will have good recruits, if you need to increase to a force of 70,000? You have gone through a lot of training. When the theatre changes, it is important that you get the right calibre of people who are not trigger-happy, etc. I know you go through a lot of processes. How will you ensure, with this demand for getting different types of soldiers, that you will maintain that quality control?

[RAdm Tyrone Pile]

I think you're referring to the instruments and tools we use to assess aptitude and—

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Mental stability.... Yes.

[RAdm Tyrone Pile]

We're looking for all of those things. We have a process in place to adapt and continually look at the tools and instruments we're using to assess candidates for the Canadian Forces. It was actually a point noted in the report that we need to improve upon. We've taken that point and we shall improve upon it. We have measures in place to monitor closely what requirements we need now and for the future.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

My concern has been, and the underlying theme, probably, of questioning you has been, why aren't we increasing our military, and why are you taking so long? I am being more cautious and saying I would like you to take your time. When I met with the soldiers—the NORAD soldiers, the British soldiers, the Canadian soldiers—they said, “We would never be trigger-happy.” We do not want a recruitment system where we can risk our lives or the lives of our soldiers if we are not careful. I just want to ensure that we have quality assurance in the system.

[RAdm Tyrone Pile]

I started just discussing the first phase, and that is actually joining the Canadian Forces. After that, as you're well aware, we go through very rigorous training and indoctrination into the Canadian Forces. Part of that indoctrination is self-discipline, responsibility, and leadership. We provide opportunities throughout their careers for self-improvement and professional development, as I think you would have witnessed with the people you met in uniform. We devote a lot of attention to that in our training system, to make sure we are sending the right people with the right qualifications, abroad or here in Canada.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

My last question, because I'm sure I'll be running out of time, is this. With this changing environment that we have, what is your greatest need? Is it the competence? Is it the air force? Is it navy? What are your first priorities? Is it doctors and engineers? Who is it that you need fast?

[RAdm Tyrone Pile]

There are a number of occupations where we are experiencing difficulty in getting the numbers we'd like. Naval technicians has historically been a very difficult area, and it continues to be. Those qualifications that we seek are sought out by everybody, in the private sector as well.

Doctors are a sort of good news story. We've made some significant strides targeting specifically, and just being a lot smarter in how we're recruiting doctors and getting the word out.

One of the areas where we are desperately short at the moment is pharmacists. The competition for pharmacists in the private sector is extreme.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

I'd just like to commend you. One of the heads of the DART team that went to Pakistan yesterday received the Star of Sacrifice from the Pakistan government. Congratulations.

[RAdm Tyrone Pile]

Thank you, Ma'am.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you very much.

Next will be Mr. Williams, and that will conclude the second and final round.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I'm looking at the Auditor General's exhibit 2.1. There are a couple of areas here where she says progress has been “unsatisfactory given the significance and complexity of the issue and the time that has elapsed since the recommendation was made”. And the bottom one is, “The Department should ensure that its human-resource management information is accurate and up-to-date.”

She's given you a failing grade on that one, Admiral Pile. Can we have comments, please?

[RAdm Tyrone Pile]

I can't recall exactly which information was not “accurate and up to date”, but we make every effort to ensure that our information is accurate and up to date.

One of the things we rely on is our own human resources management system. It's one of the areas we intend to improve upon in the Canadian Forces in the future. It's going to require investment to move from obsolescence into a modern personnel management system, but we are working towards that goal.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

The other complaint she had, or the unsatisfactory grade she gave to you, was for keeping us informed. You've kept us in the dark. “Performance measures should be in place...and the results included in the departmental performance report to Parliament.”

I've put a great deal of emphasis, as I've said in this committee, on ensuring that departmental performance reports contain all the information we need in order to assist you, if you have problems; to provide more money, if you don't have enough money; to understand your needs and concerns and problems; as well as to give you an opportunity to tell us your successes. But it is two sides of the same coin.

Madam Auditor General, do you have any comments on these two unsatisfactory grades you've given to them?

[Sheila Fraser]

On the question of systems, Mr. Chair, I understand the department has three different systems that we looked at, and they all had different data. It wasn't clear to us which ones were the most accurate. Ms. Loschiuk might elaborate further if the committee wishes.

Performance reporting I think is an issue that's probably common to many departments, especially with the increases that have been announced. It will be important I think for parliamentarians to be able to know the progress that's being made on overall numbers, but also, we would suggest, on certain target groups, and on the representation, for example, of visible minorities, women, and aboriginals. Parliamentarians, I would hope, would be interested in getting that kind of tracking going forward.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Thank you. Perhaps we can elaborate on that when we write our report.

You mentioned you were taking pride in your attrition level being quite low. I have a situation in my constituency right now. A member of the armed forces has contacted me. He wants to get into the private sector. He has a job in the private sector, but he's not being released from his six-months' notice contract. There was a letter from the minister saying, no, you signed on and you're not getting released until you've done your six months. So how many people are asking to get released from the military and being denied based on the fact that they have a contract to stay?

[RAdm Tyrone Pile]

I can't give you a categoric number, but we do have a policy in place in the Canadian Forces that if an individual is required for operations, we have the option of extending. Normally for most people who request a voluntary release, we try to get them out within thirty days. If that's not possible because they are required for an operational commitment, then they are required for an operational commitment, and they signed on for that.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

You mentioned the dearth of pharmacists as the most pressing issue you have. Does your pay scale flexibility allow you enough flexibility to offer additional incentives in financial pay, if that's what it takes to recruit these people?

[RAdm Tyrone Pile]

Pay is always a difficult one, because sometimes it's difficult for us in the Canadian Forces to keep up with the private sector in terms of pay alone. We try to look at a more comprehensive package in order to attract individuals to the Canadian Forces and actually, once they're in, to keep them there.

In the case of pharmacists, we are looking at enhancing the allowances for pharmacists in terms of training and education, and through other means. I can't give the specific details, but I would certainly be able to forward those to you in the future.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

I represent a riding just on the edge of the Edmonton garrison, Edmonton—St. Albert. There's a hospital in St. Albert, which a number of years ago had doctors and nurses from the military working in it to ensure that they had experience, because there were no wartime problems at that time. Now things are different. In your hospital service, are you able to engage the doctors to provide the assistance that our military personnel coming back with wounds require? We hear of so many people going to Germany, to the American hospital there, as a first line from Afghanistan, and then coming back here. Do we have the skills within the armed forces to provide what they need?

[RAdm Tyrone Pile]

In those cases in which we do not have the skills, we have a very strong relationship with civilian hospitals. There is an ongoing commitment that we have through our director general of health services to establish those relationships. We've had extraordinary support from our civilian hospitals across the country in dealing with some of the cases that we've had as a result of injuries and wounds sustained in Afghanistan.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you very much, Mr. Williams, and thank you, Admiral Pile.

Monsieur Laforest, you have a brief point of clarification you want to make?

[Jean-Yves Laforest, Bloc, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

I wish I had enough time to ask a few more questions.

Admiral, I would like to come back to paragraph 2.66, to which Ms. Fraser referred. The Auditor General stated that the Assistant Deputy Minister—Military Human Resources was responsible for coordinating the management of human resources but that this authority was not being enforced. We know that respect for authority is of utmost importance in the armed forces, yet this lack of respect seems to be accepted.

What is your reaction to this statement? Is this deputy minister a member of the military? Is this an important issue?