Evidence of meeting #20 for Public Accounts in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was recruiting.
A recording is available from Parliament.
3:50 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
Thank you very much, Mr. Proulx.
Mr. Laforest, you have eight minutes, please.
3:50 p.m.
Bloc
Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC
Good afternoon Ms. Fraser and Mr. Pile.
In reading your report, Ms. Fraser, we see that you noted an improvement over your 2002 findings. However, a little further on, I see that, for various reasons, there has been some difficulty in filling certain specialized positions.
At paragraph 2.17 of your report, you say that shortages exist in some support occupations. These would include ammunition technicians, logistics officers, and doctors. Considering the fact that there are military operations ongoing in Afghanistan, I have some concerns about the lack of qualified personnel in these areas.
You say that a recruiting effort is underway. We want to increase the regular force by 13,000 members. Your report states that, over the past four years, 700 new members have been hired. At that rate, it will take 75 years to recruit another 13,000. I might be mistaken in my calculations, but in terms of a net increase, those targets are way off.
Elsewhere in your report, you mentioned the appointment of an assistant deputy minister-military human resources. In paragraph 2.67, you say that this authority was not being enforced.
Do you ever get the feeling that the recommendations you made relating to our armed forces in 2002 were indeed implemented but ultimately are being ignored? For example, an assistant deputy minister was appointed, but nothing has changed when it comes to recruiting. I see that as a problem. I would like to know how you feel about it.
3:50 p.m.
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
We followed up the recommendations. What we saw in 2002 is very different from what we see today. In 2002, the numbers in the armed forces were declining. I didn't see any plan to at least stabilize the attrition.
When we compare the situation to the recommendations that we made in 2002, the progress is satisfactory because the numbers are no longer dropping and there has been a levelling off. Of course, the situation has changed, because they intend to substantially increase the number of troops.
Essentially, our message is that recruitment can no longer be done in the same way. If we want to increase enrolment, then things have to change. The armed forces agree with that assessment and have taken the necessary steps. As to accountability, Adm. Pile has begun to deal with those issues. An auditor must reserve judgment and wait three or four years before deciding if an action plan has yielded the expected results. And we must not minimize the nature of these tremendous challenges.
As you mentioned, in 2002, we had noted shortages in certain specialized occupations. The situation persists in 2005. There is a rather high turnover in some areas; in fact, it can be as high as 30%. There are very specific reasons why the armed forces must have an action plan. We must not forget that retirement numbers will be increasing and there will be more new recruits as well. The attrition rate is higher for those two groups. I am not saying that all is well and that everything has been taken care of. An action plan is required. This is something that the committee could examine. You could ask for an action plan to deal with certain more specific issues. The admiral might be able to help you with that.
3:55 p.m.
Bloc
Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC
On that point, Adm. Pile, to go back to what I was saying about Ms. Fraser's report as it relates to shortages in the subgroups, there is a need for munitions technicians, logistics officers and doctors. As Ms. Fraser said, these positions are essential in the case of a deployment.
Do you have any specific plan to immediately address this situation? I am asking because there are operations underway at this time. Does that not represent quite a risk?
3:55 p.m.
RAdm Tyrone Pile
It's important for the committee to understand, Mr. Chair, that we operate in a very competitive labour market. There are a number of trade skills and professions in Canada that are in demand everywhere—in fact, around the world. When you look at physicians and highly skilled technicians for the navy, air force, and the army, we are competing with a very competitive market.
We have placed special emphasis on our action plans to target these particular occupations where we're having difficulty making sure we have sufficient numbers. In doing so, we've had some recent successes, especially with physicians. One area in which we're continuing to experience some difficulty is with our technicians, especially in the navy. So we're continuing to place extra emphasis and focus on those areas.
You're absolutely right, Monsieur, we have to ensure that we have sufficient people in those trades and professions to carry on the work we do.
3:55 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
Merci beaucoup, Monsieur Laforest.
Thank you very much, Admiral Pile.
Mr. Williams, for eight minutes.
3:55 p.m.
Conservative
John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
First, Mr. Chairman, let me say how proud we are of the armed forces, especially in the difficult times they have today in Afghanistan. Parliament and the Government of Canada stand fully committed to the work you're doing and we're proud of what you're doing. If you have an opportunity to pass that on to any member of the armed forces, please do so on our behalf. We'd appreciate that.
4 p.m.
RAdm Tyrone Pile
I will, and thank you, sir.
4 p.m.
Conservative
John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
That being said, Mr. Chairman, I do have some questions and concerns about what's going on with the recruiting and how long it takes.
You mentioned a difficult competitive environment out there, a shortage of skilled labour, and so on. When the private sector sees somebody good, it gets them on board right away because it doesn't want to lose them to someone else. You take months and months, and, as you say, you even lose contact with people who say, “I guess they don't want me in the army, so I'm going to go somewhere else that will hire me.” Why haven't you addressed the issue of the time the person applies to the time they become a member of the forces? As the Auditor General points out, it can take eight months. Why so long?
4 p.m.
RAdm Tyrone Pile
We've taken a lot of action to address the entire process. Becoming a member of the Canadian Forces involves, as you well know, a significant commitment, and we do have very high standards. They have to go through an application process, a screening process, if you will, for both their medical and security, and then obviously we assess them for their aptitude to become a member of the Canadian Forces.
On the steps we've taken recently--and we can provide you with very clear details on what we've done--I mentioned in my remarks that we used to have a sequential process we walked through.
4 p.m.
Conservative
John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
I noted that, and now you're concurrent and it's still taking too long. I understand you have to have security and stuff like that, but you must focus on doing the job quickly and doing it right. The private sector has figured it out. My question is, why are you just getting around to it now?
4 p.m.
RAdm Tyrone Pile
We've figured it out and we've taken action on this. As a matter of fact, we have a system in place right now where 30% of our applicants...this is taking into consideration statistically the current health of our youth. About 25% are immediately taken out of the equation because of medical issues.
4 p.m.
Conservative
John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
It seems to me, and time is always short in our case, that in exhibit 2.7 the Auditor General points out that if you pass the medical exam, you pass the medical exam. If you don't pass the medical exam, you can be hanging around for up to six months to find out. I guess you've got second reviews, second opinions, fourth opinions. If the person is not fit, don't you just say, “I'm sorry, we'd like to have you, but you can't make it, therefore you have to go elsewhere”?
4 p.m.
RAdm Tyrone Pile
I'm glad you asked the question in that context. I'll finish what I was going to say first, and that was in our new process we are anticipating we'll be able to make an offer within five days to 30% of our applicants.
4 p.m.
Conservative
4 p.m.
RAdm Tyrone Pile
The other 70% within thirty days.
To follow up on what you said about the issue where someone can take up to six months, you've all heard of the waiting list for doctors in various provinces around the country. Well, there is a demand to have specialists. If someone comes in with a medical condition and we pick it up in our initial screening, and if that individual must see a specialist, then that individual is into the provincial system in the province they reside in. We are waiting for the same specialist other people are waiting for to get that applicant processed. We're trying to address that by bringing in our own doctors and specialists, but that is going to take some time. Once again, we're dealing with that competitive market I talked about earlier.
4 p.m.
Conservative
John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
Attrition. Looking at the numbers here in exhibit 2.4, there was a dearth of applicants accepted from nine to thirteen years ago. It seems to me there was a change in government from nine to thirteen years ago. That would have been program review, at which point there was a downsizing right across government, and the military as well. As the Auditor General pointed out, fifteen years and over...when these people retire you've got a big hole to fill. Are you addressing that problem in the managerial ranks now, before waiting until it becomes a crisis?
4 p.m.
RAdm Tyrone Pile
We call that the forest reduction plan bubble. That bubble is moving through as latent; the tail end of the baby boomers are starting to reach retirement age in the Canadian Forces.
What we are doing is, in cases where people are qualified and competent, we've been advancing them into managerial positions. To fill in some of those positions, we've been bringing in as reservists people who have retired. Right now we are managing, and I hope we're near the tail end of that bubble. We're also considering looking at potentially bringing in individuals from other nations who can fill some of the mid-level instructor-type positions in our Canadian Forces.
4:05 p.m.
Conservative
4:05 p.m.
RAdm Tyrone Pile
Non-Canadians, that's correct.
4:05 p.m.
Conservative
John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
I see that it says in exhibit 2.7, “Applicants who are not Canadian citizens.... Landed immigrants can be enrolled in the Canadian Forces in very rare circumstances....” How many non-Canadians are in the forces?
4:05 p.m.
RAdm Tyrone Pile
I don't know how many non-Canadians are in the forces at the moment, so I can't give you that statistic. But I can get back to you on that one.
4:05 p.m.
Conservative
John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
I know my time is likely running short, Mr. Chairman, but I talked to one of the recruiting personnel in the reserves a number of years ago about why they don't do an exit interview with people leaving the reserves so they can find out if they may be doing some things wrong and can improve the retention rate. He seemed rather taken aback that the forces would talk to people who are leaving rather than talking to people who are entering.
The reason I raise that issue, Mr. Chairman, is that I know a young person who was in the reserves. Quite frankly, he gave up in disgust because he would show up on a Saturday morning and hang around all day and nobody was giving him any orders. They just sat around and did nothing. He loved it when they were on exercises. He enjoyed it. But most of the time no one knew who was doing what and there was nobody in charge, so he finally said, “Shove it”, and went home.
That has to be not only dispelled, but you have to address these kinds of issues. Are you addressing these kinds of issues?
4:05 p.m.
RAdm Tyrone Pile
I can't speak for other units and organizations in the Canadian Forces, but if it was mine, that wouldn't be the case. That individual would be really busy and excited about staying in the organization.
Having said that, we do have a comprehensive set of exit surveys for all members of the Canadian Forces.