Evidence of meeting #20 for Public Accounts in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was recruiting.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Sheila Fraser  Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Tyrone Pile  Chief, Military Personnel, Department of National Defence
Wendy Loschiuk  Principal, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Roger MacIsaac  Director General, Recruiting, Department of National Defence
Linda Colwell  Director General, Personnel Generation Policy, Department of National Defence

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB

I'm just changing gears a little bit. I have a question regarding the reasons for people not so much dropping out, but not making it through the process, with 12% failing the physical fitness test. These are people who are willing, but they're just not physically able to participate due to fitness levels, not medical problems. Is anything being done to offer these potential recruits the opportunity to whip themselves into shape and live their dream to be members of the forces?

4:55 p.m.

RAdm Tyrone Pile

With the youth in Canada today, it's quite an interesting phenomenon we're dealing with. What we've experienced in the Canadian Forces is a higher than normal rate of failure for physical fitness. As you know, to be a member in the Canadian Forces, you must be physically fit.

Instead of having the physical fitness test during the recruitment phase—another way of speeding up the process, by the way—we've taken that physical fitness test and moved it to just prior to basic training for both officers and non-commissioned members. When they do the test on arrival at the training centre, they will take one of two routes. If they pass the test, they will continue on with their basic training. If they fail the test and it's obvious they're going to need some remedial physical fitness training, we have adopted a mentoring approach to these individuals and they have up to ninety days to get themselves physically fit, with our help, with our encouragement, and also an opportunity to catch up on some other areas of training.

One of the unique things we discovered when that was not in place was that after about four to six weeks of basic training, an individual's cardiovascular system would start to improve and catch up. However, at about the nine- to eleven-week point, the frame—the bones, the tendons—would start to break down because of the very sedentary lifestyle adopted by much of our youth. We were having an extraordinary number of injuries, with some of those injuries going unreported because they were so close to the end of their training. When they finally reported them after training, we were in a position where some of them had to undergo significant rehabilitation or release because they were no longer meeting our universality-of-service principles for service in the Canadian Forces.

That's a long-winded answer, but, yes, we're very aware of the fitness issue in the Canadian Forces, and we're working toward developing a lifelong commitment to fitness and health.

5 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Thanks very much, Mr. Lake, Admiral Pile.

Mr. Christopherson, for five minutes.

5 p.m.

NDP

David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

Thank you very much, Chair.

I'm not going to belabour it, but I just want to revisit once more the issue of female recruits. Are the dropout rates the same right now for men and women?

5 p.m.

RAdm Tyrone Pile

I don't know.

Do we know whether the rates are the same for women as for men?

I'll have to get back to you on that, Mr. Christopherson.

5 p.m.

NDP

David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

If you would, please, and if there's any difference in the time span you're covering, I'd be very interested.

I am curious. Which of the three arms...? How do you refer to it—as a branch? The army, navy...?

5 p.m.

RAdm Tyrone Pile

Technically we refer to them as the three environments.

5 p.m.

NDP

David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

Which of the three environments is the most challenging for recruits?

5 p.m.

RAdm Tyrone Pile

They all have their challenges, but the least challenged is the air force.

5 p.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

5 p.m.

NDP

David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

You're going to have fun with that for a long time. You know that.

5 p.m.

RAdm Tyrone Pile

People love to join the air force, and we have a lot of reasons why, internally.

But the army and the navy, I believe, are similarly challenged, because the army and the navy traditionally are known for deploying for long periods of time, and there are certain hardships endured at sea and hardships endured in the army, based on most of the occupations in those environments. There's been a traditional trend to not having any issues with recruiting for the air force, but certainly a trend towards having difficulties recruiting for the army and the navy.

5 p.m.

NDP

David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

Has any of that changed over the last few years?

5 p.m.

RAdm Tyrone Pile

Not really, no; it's been pretty much standard for some time.

5 p.m.

NDP

David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

Okay.

Explain to me again, just in very straightforward terms, how it is that we have recruited 20,000 recruits since 2002 but only 700 are effective trained forces.

Is that the right term--ETF? I see a couple of different terms in here, but you know what I mean.

There are 20,000 recruited, but there are only 700 who are actually soldiers, as one would think of them, out on the front lines. Explain to me again why those numbers are so different.

5 p.m.

RAdm Tyrone Pile

The Auditor General's report is factually correct, and it's an accurate reflection of what happened. But do you remember I talked about the personnel system—so many leaving as so many come in? Well, every year, we lose about 4,000 to 5,000 people through attrition.

5 p.m.

NDP

David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

And that's going to increase as the years go on, I understand.

5 p.m.

RAdm Tyrone Pile

That will get larger as we have a larger Canadian Forces.

It's also what we are mandated to do. During the period of time that's reflected in the Auditor General's report we were not mandated to expand; we were mandated to sustain the numbers we had. I think we were actually mandated to grow by about 200 a year, and that's exactly what we did. I think we ended up with 700, and mathematically we should have ended up with about 600. So the 20,000 we brought in showed an actual net increase of the numbers we were targeted to achieve.

5 p.m.

NDP

David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

Is that an unusual number for any other national armed forces that we might be comparable to? I know they're all very different. It's just that it seems like such a huge number. I know you gave the reasons, but 20,000 incoming and only 700...and that's over a period of five years.

5 p.m.

RAdm Tyrone Pile

But you see, if we're losing 4,000 to 5,000 a year, that's 20,000 out. So the net increase is about 700 over that period.

5 p.m.

NDP

David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

But now you've had two expansions since you were at that number, right? In the last two years, there have been goals to reach higher. How many are you going to have to take in, in raw numbers, given all your variables, to come out with the number you need to meet not just sustainability but the increased targets? What's that raw number going to have to be?

5:05 p.m.

RAdm Tyrone Pile

Last year, the raw number was 5,527—you have to love modellers and statisticians—and this year the number is 6,428. So you see that we're going up.

5:05 p.m.

NDP

David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

But where do you need to get to, Admiral? What number do you need to get to and stay at, over what period of time, to achieve what you believe you're going to need in the foreseeable future?

5:05 p.m.

RAdm Tyrone Pile

Our target goal is 70,000 in the year 2010.

5:05 p.m.

NDP

David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

I understand. And how many recruits are you going to have to take in, in raw numbers? I'm trying to get a sense of how many Canadians we have to get at the one end going into the system to actually have soldiers—boots on the ground, if you will.