Evidence of meeting #26 for Public Accounts in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was ministers.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Wayne Wouters  Secretary, Treasury Board Secretariat
David Moloney  Senior Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat
Linda Lizotte-MacPherson  Associate Secretary, Treasury Board Secretariat
Marc O'Sullivan  Assistant Secretary to the Cabinet, Senior Personel and Special Projects Secretariat, Privy Council Office
Alister Smith  Assistant Secretary, Corporate Priorities and Planning, Treasury Board Secretariat
Karl Salgo  Senior Officer, Machinery of Government, Privy Council Office

3:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

I'd like to call the meeting to order. I want to welcome everyone here. Bienvenue à tous.

I want to especially welcome four representatives from the Treasury Board Secretariat. Colleagues, we have with us today Wayne G. Wouters, the secretary. Accompanying Mr. Wouters is Alister Smith, the assistant secretary, corporate priorities and planning; Mr. David Moloney, senior assistant secretary; and Linda Lizotte-MacPherson, the associate secretary.

Members, as you'll notice from your agenda, we have broken today's session into two sections. In the first one, which will last approximately one hour, we'll hear from the Treasury Board Secretariat. Then in approximately one hour's time we'll hear from two representatives from the Privy Council Office, and then one representative from the Treasury Board Secretariat again.

This is the continuation of our study into the relationship between the public accounts committee and the Treasury Board Secretariat. We certainly operate with similar arms. They are the executive; we're the parliamentary arm of government, but our mandates are not that dissimilar. Again, we're doing this with the expectation of the enactment of the Federal Accountability Act--the need to develop a protocol for deputy ministers appearing before the public accounts committee; the need to develop a dispute settlement mechanism; and the need to clarify the roles of the individual departments and to strengthen the capacity of the departments, especially in the areas of financial administration, and of course, the oversight role of the Treasury Board Secretariat.

Again, I want to welcome you. I want to thank you very much for being here. I'm going to turn the floor over to you, Mr. Wouters.

3:25 p.m.

Wayne Wouters Secretary, Treasury Board Secretariat

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to make a short opening statement, and then we can move from there.

Mr. Chairman, I would like to begin by congratulating you undertaking a study on the roles and responsibilities of the Treasury Board Secretariat of Canada. Though I was not able to appear before you last week, I am very happy to do so today to present an overview of our roles and responsibilities.

Your comments will be appreciated in our preparation for royal assent of the Federal Accountability Act.

The Treasury Board portfolio includes the Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat, the Public Service Human Resources Management Agency of Canada, and the Canada School of Public Service. The Office of the Comptroller General exists as a distinct office within the secretariat.

The role of the Treasury Board is to ensure that government is well managed and accountable, and that resources are allocated to achieve measurable results.

As Secretary of the Treasury Board, I oversee the work of the secretariat in supporting the Treasury Board in its role and its two key sets of responsibilities. The first is management policy development and oversight. The second is expenditure management and financial oversight.

The Treasury Board also acts as the principal employer of the public service, particularly in regard to labour-management relations, compensation, and human resource management issues.

The senior associate secretary of the Treasury Board, Robert Fonberg, gave you a good outline of expenditure management system last week, so today I will focus on what we are doing to strengthen management accountability and oversight, and how we are preparing for the Federal Accountability Act.

The Treasury Board has the authority to set management policies that make clear the accountabilities of deputies for the full range of management functions. That includes responsibilities around HR, information, technology, financial resources, and the like. It is also responsible for dealing with cases of non-compliance, particularly where a department is unable to address a specific issue, or where the non-compliance introduces a broader risk to the government as a whole.

In those instances, the Treasury Board may impose conditions or constraints on the exercise of authority related to the management and administration of a department or take other measures, depending upon the circumstances. The powers of the Treasury Board are particularly effective with respect to spending authorities.

One of the key elements of the Federal Accountability Act is the designation of deputy heads as accounting officers for their respective organizations. To be clear, the bill, which is still before Parliament, proposes the codification of existing principles, practices, and responsibilities.

Specifically, the proposed accounting officer model will bring clarity by codifying the following responsibilities of deputies. First is ensuring that resources are organized to deliver departmental objectives in compliance with government policy and procedures. Second is to ensure that there are effective systems of internal control. Third is to sign the departmental accounts. The final one is to perform other specific duties assigned by law or regulation in relation to the administration of their organization.

In addition, when the bill becomes law, a requirement will be put in place to address unresolved disputes between a deputy and his or her minister in relation to the interpretation or application of a Treasury Board policy, directive, or standard. In the event of such a dispute, the deputy will first seek guidance from me. If the matter remains unresolved, the minister will go to the Treasury Board for a determination. The resulting decision will be shared with the Auditor General as a cabinet confidence.

The legislation also proposes to codify the long-standing practice of deputy heads appearing before parliamentary committees to answer questions pertaining to departmental management. It makes clear that the responsibilities of accounting officers exist within the framework of ministerial responsibility and accountability to Parliament. In other words, while deputies must appear before committees and answer questions on departmental management, ministers alone are accountable to Parliament.

As secretary, I will be held to account for supporting deputies in their roles as accounting officers. Specifically, I am responsible for providing deputies with the right tools to fulfill their responsibilities, including setting the expectations and standards across all management functions, from managing financial resources to managing IT, from HR management to contracting.

The Treasury Board management policies are the foundation for management accountability in government. They ensure a consistent approach to management across government, based on common standards that promote management excellence. They define clear responsibilities and accountabilities of deputies for the management of results, resources, and risks. They define incentives for management excellence, and negative consequences for inadequate performance.

Hard lessons learned over the past few years have demonstrated the need for clarity around roles and responsibilities, particularly in the area of management. As a result, we are currently undertaking a comprehensive renewal of the Treasury Board policy suite to ensure that management policies meet these objectives. In renewing the policies, we are ensuring that accountabilities are clear and that roles and controls are in place to address key areas of risk and to support the accounting officer model proposed by Bill C-2.

We are balancing the need for controls with the need to respect the accountabilities of deputies as accounting officers, to foster innovation and productivity within the public service, and to ensure efficient and effective program and service delivery to Canadians. As an example of an effort in this area, we are reviewing the financial management policy suite to ensure that the roles and responsibilities of deputies as accounting officers, their chief financial officers, and of course the Comptroller General, who provides functional leadership in this area, are clearly set out.

One of the renewed policies that have already been approved by Treasury Board is the policy on internal audit. The new policy provides a comprehensive government-wide approach to the way internal audit activities are planned and conducted in departments. It also provides a clear, integrated assignment of responsibilities for internal audit activities between deputy heads and the Comptroller General. Also, as I mentioned earlier, Treasury Board has a role in addressing non-compliance, particularly when the non-compliance is systemic or creates whole-of-government risks.

As we committed in the federal accountability action plan, we are working on the establishment of a compliance framework that will accomplish three objectives: first, through effective training, to ensure that officials are aware of the rules and consequences when they are broken; second, through such mechanisms as the deputy ministers committee on discipline, to ensure that the right disciplinary measures are used at the right time; and finally, to ensure that both sides of compliance are addressed with preventive measures beforehand and appropriate restorative measures afterwards.

Finally, as secretary, I have the responsibility to provide formal input for the clerk's overall assessment of deputies by providing an assessment of management performance. To do this, I use a number of sources, such as our assessment under the management accountability framework. I look at ongoing Treasury Board submissions, the results of internal audits, and of course my ongoing dialogue and discussions with the deputy heads in departments.

The work I have described above is aimed at clarifying the accountabilities of deputies, including the consequences of non-compliance, providing deputies with the necessary capabilities and tools to help them discharge their responsibilities, strengthening management oversight by both deputies and Treasury Board, and setting clear expectations for management and for assessing management performance.

The work to renew our expenditure management system that Mr. Fonberg described last week will ensure that government programs focus on results, provide value for money, and are consistent with federal responsibilities. These initiatives are mutually reinforcing. Improvements in management accountability and oversight will translate into better expenditure management and vice versa. They will also provide a better focus on moving to a more strategic and risk-based approach to managing transactions.

Mr. Chairman, this concludes my remarks. We would be very happy to answer any questions that you may have.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Thank you very much, Mr. Wouters.

I want to point out that in the copies of the opening remarks, I believe most members are missing pages 2, 4, and 6. We'll have those reproduced for them shortly, and we'll circulate them to you people so that you'll have them.

I want to point out also that, because of the time, we're going to have to reduce the questioning from eight minutes to seven minutes. We'll only have time for one round, so you may want to share time within caucuses here.

The first person on the list is Mr. Pacetti. You have seven minutes.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

Massimo Pacetti Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I won't take too much of my own time.

Just quickly, on the three pages of your brief that we have, Mr. Wouters, you talk about non-compliance and state, “as I mentioned earlier, Treasury Board has a role in addressing non-compliance, particularly where the non-compliance is systemic or creates whole-of-government risks.” It's not like government just was created today or that the Federal Accountability Act is really going to change anything. In what situation where you have non-compliance does it create a whole bunch of risk? Am I misunderstanding something here? Can you give me an example of when that would happen?

3:35 p.m.

Secretary, Treasury Board Secretariat

Wayne Wouters

There are cases under the policies that we have. Of course, we have a significant number of policies, and there are times when a department may not be consistent with the policies that we have put in place. As a result, we would recommend to the Treasury Board that certain actions be taken in those particular situations. Perhaps a procurement project has not followed the appropriate policy.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

Massimo Pacetti Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC

I don't mean to interrupt, but we are on limited time.

Can you give me an example? Is it as a result of a new project that would have been undertaken by one of the departments? How would that happen? Does somebody all of a sudden wake up and say, well, we're non-compliant?

3:35 p.m.

Secretary, Treasury Board Secretariat

Wayne Wouters

For example, there could be certain conditions and terms of when they have to come back to the board to seek approval. They may have signed a contract that in fact was not within their authority. These kinds of issues can take place.

In those cases, we have a number of tools at our disposal. We can put in certain conditions to constrain the authority of the department in exercising its authority in this area, to ensure that it is consistent with policy. We can ensure that there is reporting back to the department on a regular basis when it comes to, in this case, specific procurement projects.

Those are the kinds of things we would look at.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

Massimo Pacetti Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC

Thank you.

That leads me to my next question in terms of departments. How are all the other departments structured? Are they all similar in terms of having a comptroller in charge of the financial aspect? I think we mentioned it last week. The comptroller is in charge of the financial aspects and the secretary is in charge of expenditures. Is that the way your structure works presently?

3:35 p.m.

Secretary, Treasury Board Secretariat

Wayne Wouters

In departments, we are moving to a model in which all departments would have a chief financial officer who is responsible for the overall financial management within that department and reporting through to the—

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

Massimo Pacetti Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC

And that's without exception in all departments?

3:35 p.m.

Secretary, Treasury Board Secretariat

Wayne Wouters

Again, some of the smaller agencies will not have a chief financial officer. They will have a financial capacity, but not a senior financial officer like in the larger departments.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

Massimo Pacetti Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC

And then there is an accounting officer as well. Is that the same thing as a financial officer?

3:40 p.m.

Secretary, Treasury Board Secretariat

Wayne Wouters

No. Under the new act, deputy ministers will be designated accounting officers. Basically, under the new act, they will be responsible for the day-to-day operations of their departments and for signing off the accounts of their departments. It basically codifies what's now in practice, but that is now specified in legislation as a role for the deputy heads.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Massimo Pacetti Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC

Thank you.

Before I give the rest of my time to Ms. Ratansi, Mr. Chairman, I haven't been here, but is it possible to get an organization chart from these departments, before and after? Has that been requested?

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

It has been done previously. We have it somewhere, Mr. Pacetti, and we can get you a copy. We will do that.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Massimo Pacetti Liberal Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC

Great.

Are you ready? Go ahead.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON

Just to carry on the thought process of my colleague, you say it will quantify and ensure “that resources are organized to deliver departmental objectives”. Does that mean that, at the moment, the deputy ministers are going helter-skelter and are not meeting departmental objectives, that they are not ensuring that there are effective systems of internal control, or that they are bypassing their signing authorities?

3:40 p.m.

Secretary, Treasury Board Secretariat

Wayne Wouters

No. Again, this is largely the role of the deputy in terms of the day-to-day management of the department, and it has largely developed through precedent. What we are doing now is codifying in the legislation the responsibility of the deputy head as the accounting officer. As a result of that, as I said, the model will clarify the responsibilities of the deputy to ensure that the resources are organized and deliver departmental objectives, and that there is a strong system of internal control.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON

I know I have to share my one minute with Borys.

I have worked with governments and I have been on the bureaucratic side of it, so I know what my limit is. It is part of my job spec. So what are you trying to legislate?

3:40 p.m.

Secretary, Treasury Board Secretariat

Wayne Wouters

Basically, we're trying to legislate to ensure that the accountabilities are clear in terms of the role of the deputy head.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON

Doesn't my contract have clear responsibilities in there?

3:40 p.m.

Secretary, Treasury Board Secretariat

Wayne Wouters

Well, there's no such thing as a contract—

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON

With the deputy minister, you don't have an employment contract?

3:40 p.m.

Secretary, Treasury Board Secretariat

Wayne Wouters

We don't have an employment contract. We don't have that model. The Australian government has that model, and in that model, deputies basically sign contracts. We're saying that under this model we've codified those roles in legislation in order to be very clear about the responsibility of the deputy head for the day-to-day management of his or her departments.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON

What are the consequences for non-compliance? We have deputy ministers come here and give us the answer that they've just been appointed as a deputy, and then once there's trouble, they're moved away to another department. It's becoming a cat-and-mouse game. What really are the consequences you're going to bring about?