Evidence of meeting #49 for Public Accounts in the 39th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was zaccardelli.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Former Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual
Sir, I would just like to clarify one point. The only audit that I saw was the audit that I ordered, and that audit was the internal audit that I commenced based on information I received from—
Conservative
Former Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual
No, I never did.
Conservative
Brian Fitzpatrick Conservative Prince Albert, SK
You've got to be kidding. Look at the thickness of this thing and the seriousness of the accusations there.
Former Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual
Well, sir, I'm telling you that when I received information, I acted upon it. The first information I received was from Mr. Lewis, and I actioned it through an audit, an audit that was.... If you look at the record, Mr. Macaulay and Ms. Revine supported that audit.
Conservative
Brian Fitzpatrick Conservative Prince Albert, SK
That's fine. I just find it astounding that the captain of the ship would not know about an audit as serious as this thing. I just find that astounding. Maybe it was a late trip or something and you were asleep at the switch.
But I'm going to leave this matter alone. I have some other concerns here.
Former Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual
Well, I would like to respond to that, because in a 25,000-person organization, the head, the commissioner, does not read every document.
Former Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual
I have staff who look after that. And the serious issues do come to me. When this serious issue came to me, I acted immediately.
Conservative
Brian Fitzpatrick Conservative Prince Albert, SK
All right.
In a good system, sir—a good system—people aren't dominated by fear. Good people rise within the system, they're rewarded. The indictments that I see here...and I don't care which way anybody spins this; we have some good people here who have moved on. Staff Sergeant Frizzell, Madame Revine, Mr. Macaulay--there are a fair number of these people who, for whatever reason, had their position eliminated or were transferred and so on. But other people who are implicated in misappropriation of funds and abuse of their position and so on, they stay on, and in some cases they even get promoted.
Again, I get back to the point that you're captain of the ship. I mean, the captain of the ship is responsible for his crew, nobody else is. So who's to blame for this sort of scenario, where good people seem to be pushed out of the system and punished, and people who should be disciplined and dealt with get promoted or stay on the ship?
Former Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual
Well, you're absolutely right, I was the captain of the ship for almost six and a half years. When information came to me, I acted upon it immediately. I received the information. In my judgment, I did an audit.
The day that I received the audit report, sir, I acted upon it by removing Mr. Ewanovich and Mr. Crupi. That is decisive action by the captain of the ship.
And I would like to add one more thing. Mr. Fraser Macaulay was given a good job, and he came back to a good job.
Former Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual
He came back to a very good job.
Conservative
Brian Fitzpatrick Conservative Prince Albert, SK
We've heard that.
I have a very important question I want to ask you. I'm assuming that when you did get this audit that you commissioned...well, you said you didn't really know what was going on till then, and I presume you were shocked.
Now, you have somebody you have to report to, and that's the Minister of National Security. Did you have any meetings with that minister at that period of time? Because everybody was in a state of shock then, to apprise that minister of the seriousness of this situation so she'd be briefed on it--I assume you would have done that.
Former Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual
Under the RCMP Act, I am responsible for the management of all aspects of the RCMP. When I received the audit, I read it. I was very disappointed, and I was shocked. I immediately identified the two principal people who I believed—
Conservative
Brian Fitzpatrick Conservative Prince Albert, SK
Did you talk to the minister? That's what I'm asking.
Former Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual
Well, I'm trying to answer your question, so please allow me to answer the question.
Former Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual
I acted immediately. I discharged my duty.
Subsequent to that, I did have discussions, because this matter was in the public domain, don't forget, and every time it came up, whenever there was a request from the minister—
Conservative
Former Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual
I acted immediately. I discharged my duty. Subsequent to that, I did have discussions, but don't forget that this matter was in the public domain. And every time it came up whenever there was a request—
Former Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual
Not on that specific case, because as the commissioner, I was responsible for the matter and I dealt with it.
Conservative
Brian Fitzpatrick Conservative Prince Albert, SK
Did they contact you? I would think they would be quite concerned about this sort of report.
Former Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual
Every time it came up in the media, there would be a request, “This is an issue. What have you done?” I would explain that we were concerned about the issues, I did an audit, and I acted upon it. We then went to a criminal investigation, had the result of the criminal investigation—