No, sir.
Evidence of meeting #49 for Public Accounts in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was zaccardelli.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #49 for Public Accounts in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was zaccardelli.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
At a later date, perhaps you could table who those references were.
Now, at the present time you work at the super-secret Canadian Security Establishment. It requires a top security clearance. How have you maintained your security clearance? You left under a cloud; you were forced to leave the RCMP. How have you managed to maintain your top security clearance?
4:45 p.m.
As an Individual
First of all, I wasn't forced to leave, sir. I resigned on my own. I was, during this period of time, offered three jobs with other organizations. All disappeared between a Friday and a Monday, to show you the malicious nature of some of the individuals who would be putting out allegations. I knew at the time there was no way I could continue working in the RCMP. I was being continually attacked and therefore I decided to resign.
Health reasons too--this would never go away. People kept at it and at it.
So it was health reasons and the fact that I knew I could not continue working in the federal government.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
Thank you.
Mr. Zaccardelli, you're familiar with the Ottawa Police investigation. I mentioned there was a 40-page summary of allegations against Mr. Crupi. You had him leave. How was he allowed to leave with top security clearance?
4:45 p.m.
Former Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual
When I learned, as a result of the extensive audit of the mismanagement in this area, of the nepotism, the contract splitting, and the inappropriate charges against the administration fund, as I've indicated, I immediately acted upon that, as I said in that statement. I determined that two people should leave, the two key people who were responsible. Mr. Crupi was one of them. I gave that direction, and that's what happened.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
So you have no idea how he was able to maintain his top security clearance?
4:45 p.m.
Former Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual
I do not get personally involved in reviewing people's security clearances, not Mr. Crupi's.
4:45 p.m.
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
Mr. Lewis, you wanted to jump in. I noticed you putting your hand up.
4:45 p.m.
Staff Sergeant (Retired), Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual
Thank you.
Mr. Zaccardelli's opening statement in the statement he just made is not, I find, quite correct. I was personally involved in the removal of Mr. Ewanovich and Mr. Crupi, and here's how it happened.
After he cancelled the first investigation, the criminal investigation that I referred to earlier, Mr. Zaccardelli told me on November 26 that if the audit report showed criminal or internal violations, he would go into the appropriate forum, which would have been an internal investigation or a criminal investigation. When the audit was completed in October 2003, there was no documented evidence by the management. In fact, he indicated that he immediately initiated an internal investigation. I can tell you right now that there was no such document. I was going to make another formal complaint because I was aware of the allegations, but the problem I had was that under the RCMP Act, the only person I could go to was Assistant Commissioner Gessie Clément, CO of A Division. She was now implicated in the audit. She was subsequently removed from her position, so I had no way to go formally. I met with now Deputy Commissioner George, and I asked what was going to happen. She said nothing was going to happen. I asked why not, and she said she'd been in contact with Deputy Commissioner Gauvin, her civilian comptroller, and he'd told her that a couple of hundred thousand dollars had been misspent, that they were going to give them a slap on the hand and move on.
I represent senior officers. I'm their spokesperson. I said, “Pass this message on to the commissioner”. I also saw another deputy commissioner at that same time and passed it on through him that if there was no discipline, if there was no investigation, I would go public on behalf of the members I was representing.
She called me back in the office in early November and said Crupi and Ewanovich were gone. He described how they were removed.
Then I went back in on November 23 to Barb George, and I asked about the investigation. I was told, “There's not going to be any investigation.” I said, “Pass this on to the commissioner. If there is no investigation, it's going public.” She called me back into her office on November 24. She said, “I sat up last night with my husband, Tom”, who was also a member and just retired from CSIS. She said, “If he doesn't allow an investigation, because this is the only way we can get it done, through the act, then I will resign.” She said, “Okay, I had a meeting with him last night. Submit your reports.”
I submitted my report on January 5, 2004. Nothing happened. On February 16, 2004, my report, which I provided to the highest level of the RCMP, got leaked. It was photostatted and being passed around everywhere. I then went to the minister--Anne McLellan at the time--I went to the OAG, and I went to the President of the Treasury Board. On Saturday I received, finally, the circumstances of where that went, and it worked its way up to our deputy commissioner, and five days later, in March, the Ottawa city police were contacted.
At no time was an internal investigation ordered. At no time was a criminal investigation ordered, contrary to what Mr. Zaccardelli has said here. And when the internal investigation was finally ordered and the determination that we missed our year for charging members of the RCMP, it was 41 months after my first criminal investigation complaint.
Now, if that's immediate, then there is a whole new term for “immediate”--41 months later. Those are the events we have documentation on.
4:50 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
Thank you, Mr. Lewis.
I'm going to move on to Mr. Fitzpatrick, for seven minutes.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
Brian Fitzpatrick Conservative Prince Albert, SK
Mr. Zaccardelli, you were appointed commissioner in 1997. Is that the correct date?
4:50 p.m.
Former Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual
It was September 2000, sir.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
Brian Fitzpatrick Conservative Prince Albert, SK
Okay.
The government of the day would have been the Chrétien administration, Prime Minister Chrétien.
4:50 p.m.
Former Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual
That's right.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
Brian Fitzpatrick Conservative Prince Albert, SK
Who would have notified you from the government side that you were appointed the commissioner? Did you get a phone call from the Prime Minister or a cabinet minister notifying you of this decision?
4:50 p.m.
Former Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual
I got a call from the Prime Minister and the Clerk of the Privy Council.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
Brian Fitzpatrick Conservative Prince Albert, SK
Okay, so that was a very important day in your life, being appointed to this position.
4:50 p.m.
Former Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual
It was 9:05 on a Tuesday evening, sir.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
Brian Fitzpatrick Conservative Prince Albert, SK
Right, okay. I just want to deal with some other things out there. Maybe we should clear the air on them.
At any time, was there anybody in Prime Minister Chrétien's cabinet who was related to you?
4:50 p.m.
Former Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual
Not that I'm aware of, sir.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
4:50 p.m.
Former Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual
4:50 p.m.
Former Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual
I know there are a few Italians in the House, but they're not related to me, sir.
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
Brian Fitzpatrick Conservative Prince Albert, SK
Okay. Well, I'm Irish, I can identify with that.
Mr. Ewanovich said that when he saw the audit he was shocked. A lot of people are using that terminology—they were shocked. So I take it, when somebody says they're shocked, the information in there is rather disturbing. I would think, sir, when Mr. Lewis's and Mr. Macaulay's and Madame Revine's reports crossed your desk and you saw audits like this audit, or this KPMG audit, you would have been shocked.