Evidence of meeting #49 for Public Accounts in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was zaccardelli.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Brian Fitzpatrick Conservative Prince Albert, SK
So you would have had some personal dialogue with the minister and her staff on this problem?
4:55 p.m.
Former Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual
Yes, from time to time.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
4:55 p.m.
Former Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual
I don't recall specific discussions with her, but I know there would have been briefings that would have gone up to the minister.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Brian Fitzpatrick Conservative Prince Albert, SK
What about the President of the Treasury Board? Were there any discussions with him?
4:55 p.m.
Former Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual
No, never with him. It wouldn't be an issue that I would normally discuss with the President of the Treasury Board, although the Treasury Board was aware of the results of the audit, sir. The audit would have gone, as I said, to the Auditor General and to Treasury Board.
4:55 p.m.
Conservative
Brian Fitzpatrick Conservative Prince Albert, SK
I have one further question, sir, on your management style.
From my point of view, we have three or four senior, experienced RCMP people who have testified under oath before this committee about serious matters: inaction, circling, buck-passing, and a whole lot of different things that were going on within the RCMP. It's my read on this thing—and I'm sorry if you don't agree with me—that the only time you acted, sir, was when you were pretty well forced to act. Whether it was audits or criminal investigations or whatever, you had to react to the situation because you were put in a corner where you had to do something.
Why I'm really disappointed is that you're the captain of the ship. You should have taken the bull by the horns, taken this matter right at the very beginning and dealt with it . That is the kind of leadership I would have expected, sir.
4:55 p.m.
Former Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual
Mr. Chairman, whenever I have been informed of anything in 36 years of my career, I've always acted upon it immediately. I never passed the buck. I never abdicated.
What you have just said is totally unfair, and I totally disagree with it. Chief Superintendent Macaulay was promoted by me. When he came back from DND on an excellent secondment, he was given an excellent job. If that is what you consider punishment, I'd like you to clarify what that means. I never passed the buck, and I took my responsibilities seriously.
5 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
Thank you very much, Mr. Fitzpatrick.
Thank you, Mr. Zaccardelli.
I have a couple of things, colleagues. We are running out of time. We are going to go to round two. We're going to have three minutes, but we're not going to conclude. I have one question before we do that, and I believe it's an important issue to clarify.
Mr. Ewanovich and Mr. Crupi, by your testimony today, you're leaving the impression that you retired or resigned on your own volition, with honour and distinction.
Mr. Zaccardelli, you gave the impression that these people were fired. I'd really like to get to the bottom of this.
Mr. Ewanovich, did you resign of your own volition, with honour and distinction, as you said, or were you fired? Which is it? You can't have it both ways here.
5 p.m.
As an Individual
That's right. When I was advised of the audit, it was at the Château Cartier. We had a senior management meeting. I discussed the audit with the commissioner that evening. He chooses to use the term “remove”. That's not the term that I certainly would agree with.
When we discussed it, I agreed that I would step down from my position because of the seriousness of the audit. The next morning, I went to my colleagues on the senior executive team and I announced that I was stepping down because of the audit. I felt it had happened under my watch and that I was accountable, and the words that I used said I would be resigning. Subsequent to that, I resigned on April 2.
5 p.m.
As an Individual
My birthday was coming up on June 16. I realized after all those job losses that I could no longer work. My reputation was sullied. I couldn't get a job. I resigned.
5 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
And as far as you were concerned, you resigned with honour and distinction?
I assume both of you got performance pay right until the dying—
5 p.m.
As an Individual
I did not, sir. I did not get performance pay in the last three years. I got it one time, early in the process.
5 p.m.
As an Individual
I'd like to make it clear that I received no cashouts, payouts, or performance pay for the last year that I was there.
5 p.m.
Former Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual
Mr. Chair, as I said, the day that I read that report, I talked to Jim Ewanovich and I said he was gone. I appointed the replacement in his position, Barbara George, that day, and I instructed that Mr. Crupi also be removed from the job.
They're entitled to due process. The law requires that, and that's what they got. Of course they were still on the books, but they were removed from their positions.
When their appraisals came up in terms of performance pay, I was the one who made the decision that they would not get performance pay because of what had happened.
5 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
Thank you very much.
Again, colleagues, we're going to go to the next examiner. We have 10 minutes left, and I'm going to go to Mr. Wrzesnewskyj, Mr. Williams, and maybe Mr. Laforest. Then at 5:15, we're going to deal with Mr. Christopherson's motion.
Mr. Wrzesnewskyj, you have three minutes.
5 p.m.
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
Mr. Zaccardelli, you're a proud former member of the RCMP. You've said that you're basically a man of action; you take decisive action. Your course of action two days after a criminal investigation was launched was one of action. You shut it down.
You heard from Mr. Macaulay. You were decisive, you took immediate action, and you had him removed from the RCMP. Now, you say that you did this to protect him. He begs to differ.
But others took your cue. Ms. Revine was constructively dismissed. Was she being protected the same way you were protecting Mr. Macaulay? Mr. Frizzell was removed from the investigation. Was he being protected? They thought they were being punished. Now, it appears that those who should be punished were being protected, and those who should have been protected were in fact being punished.
Mr. Zaccardelli, when a criminal investigation of one of your appointees, Mr. Ewanovich, gets launched, you shut it down. What were you fearful of?
5 p.m.
Former Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual
Mr. Chairman, I would like to respond to this question. First, I would like to say that I categorically do not accept anything that has been said by this honourable gentlemen. I totally disagree with that.
The first point I want to make is that while he alleges I shut down a criminal investigation, there never was a first criminal investigation. Remember, as I said in my statement and as I've also testified, I received information from Mr. Lewis. As the commissioner, it was my decision to decide what to do with that information. Based on the information I had, it was my belief that the appropriate step was to conduct an audit.
If you look at some documents from Ms. Revine and Chief Superintendent Macaulay, they actually believed that an audit was the right step.