Evidence of meeting #50 for Public Accounts in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was george.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Georges Etoka
Rosalie Burton  Former Director General of Human Resources, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual
Commissioner Barbara George  Deputy Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Paul Roy  Ottawa Police Service (Retired), As an Individual
Sergeant Mike Frizzell  Staff Sergeant, Strategic and Operational Support, National Child Exploitation Coordination Centre, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Superintendent Fraser Macaulay  Chief Superintendent, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

3:50 p.m.

Ottawa Police Service (Retired), As an Individual

Paul Roy

Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Chairman, the investigation into the RCMP pension fund undertaken by the Ottawa Police Service between March 2004 and June 2005 was an independent, thorough, and complete criminal investigation. It was concluded with integrity and professionalism in accordance with the principles of major case management and in keeping with conventional practices in modern Canadian policing.

My name is Paul Roy and I was the officer in charge of this investigation. By way of background, I am a 32-year veteran of the Ottawa Police Service, having retired last January as an inspector. Over half my career has been spent in the field of criminal investigations. Of relevance to this committee is the fact that I spent five years with the Professional Standards Section conducting and managing investigations of other police officers.

For the last five years prior to retirement, I was a senior officer responsible , first, for directing the Major Crime Unit and subsequently, for directing the property and enterprise crime units, including the Organized Fraud Unit, the High Tech Crime Unit and Forensic Identification Services.

I wish to make the following comments about the investigation. The investigation took 15 months. There were 238 interviews, including an interview with the Commissioner of the RCMP. There were 75,000 documents researched. There was a provincial crown attorney assigned to the file from the onset. A number of significant investigative techniques were employed. Relevant documents were obtained, regardless of where they were held and in spite of the security classification surrounding them. The final report, including several binders, filled a banker's box. The executive summary was 51 pages long.

Why were no criminal charges laid? Gone are the days when police officers, in doubt over laying charges, can simply let the judge sort it out. Royal commissions and judicial inquiries have reiterated that in Canada the laying of criminal charges is an extremely serious exercise of public authority. In Ontario, charges will only proceed where there is a “reasonable prospect of conviction”, considered to be a higher legal threshold to lay a charge than “reasonable and probable grounds”, called for in the Criminal Code of Canada. In this case, there was no reasonable prospect of criminal conviction.

That does not mean, however, that no wrongdoing took place--to the contrary. The Ottawa Police investigation report identifies that 21 persons at different levels of the RCMP were alleged to have committed wrongdoings or improper actions, with 14 pages of specific allegations.

I would like to tell you how the investigation operated. I was in charge of this investigation. That meant that I made the investigative decisions. In doing so, I met regularly with Ottawa Police Chief Vince Bevan, alone or with Deputy Chief Sue O'Sullivan and Ottawa Police Superintendent Peter Crosby, my immediate supervisor. We discussed strategies and operational options, but the decisions were mine.

In making those decisions, I also met with Mr. Robert Wadden, the assigned provincial crown attorney, and Sergeant William Sullivan from the Ottawa Police Service, who worked with me, and I met regularly with Ottawa Police Service general counsel Vincent Westwick, who is also in charge of our professional standards section. I consulted regularly with the investigative team members to elicit their opinions and views. I encouraged each member of the team to be involved, to debate, to challenge operational theories and decisions. That is more than just good management; it is a test against tunnel vision or rush to judgment, an essential part of the integrity of any investigation.

Now I wish to comment on the role of Assistant Commissioner David Gork and the independence of the investigation.

It's very difficult to conduct an investigation of this magnitude within a large institution without a contact or liaison person. During this investigation, I met with Assistant Commissioner Gork when I needed something from the RCMP, whether it be resources, facilities, specialized or technical operational support, or access to documents or persons. In each and every case Assistant Commissioner Gork provided full and complete support to my investigation. At no time did he attempt to interfere or influence me in any way. I did not report to Mr. Gork, nor did I take any direction from him. Indeed, in my opinion, Assistant Commissioner Gork and all the RCMP members assigned to the investigative team put the interest of the investigation ahead of their own interests and those of the RCMP.

While I accept the comments of the Auditor General and others about the perceived lack of independence, I invite the committee to consider the following:

This investigation was directed by the Ottawa Police Service.

I was the officer in charge and reported to the chief of the Ottawa Police Service.

It started out as a 3-month investigation, but lasted 15 months; the decision to increase the duration and magnitude was mine.

The crown assigned to the investigation was from the office of the provincial Crown Attorney and was involved throughout the investigation, not just at the end.

The Ottawa Police ordered and relied on an independent forensic audit.

The results of the investigation were announced publicly by the Ottawa Police in a media conference on June 27, 2005.

There was no influence attempted or exercised in relation to this investigation.

This investigation uncovered all the wrongdoing, mismanagement and unethical behaviour that existed and outlined detailed evidence as to who was accountable for such actions, regardless of their rank or position within the RCMP.

The report provided was a detailed and a complete review of all the findings.

I presented my final report to Chief Bevan who in turn delivered it directly to the Commissioner of the RCMP.

I am fully committed to cooperating with this committee and with the independent investigation called by the government.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Merci beaucoup, Mr. Roy.

We're going to now start the first round. Each member will have eight minutes.

Mr. Wrzesnewskyj.

April 18th, 2007 / 3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON

Thank you, Chair.

I'd like to thank all the witnesses for coming to the committee meeting today.

Staff Sergeant Frizzell, once again we heard Deputy Commissioner Barb George. In fact, she quoted her previous statement before committee: “I can state with absolute finality that it was neither Commissioner Zaccardelli nor me who had anything whatsoever to do with, as you say, the removal of Sergeant Frizzell.”

On March 28 I tabled several e-mails that seemed to indicate quite the opposite.

Staff Sergeant Frizzell, has Assistant Commissioner Bruce Rogerson spoken with you since? What are his recollections? Would you know whether he's willing to appear before our committee?

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

We're getting into situations here. We're dealing with people's reputations, and that question is direct hearsay. That's what it is. If it is important to bring Mr. Bruce Rogerson, then we'll have to do it, but we cannot get the statements of Bruce Rogerson through Mr. Frizzell.

I know it's not a judicial hearing. It's not a judicial proceeding, but we have to follow some process when we're involved in a matter this serious. Again, try to stick to the facts.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON

Sure, with that sort of indication, I agree, and I'd like to request that this committee call Assistant Commissioner Bruce Rogerson before the committee.

4 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

We're not going to deal with that now, Mr. Wrzesnewskyj, but if you can lay the framework that's he's an important witness, we'll certainly consider it. Again, it's not my decision, of course; it's up to the steering committee.

Again, if there's anything factual that Mr. Frizzell can add, please continue.

4 p.m.

S/Sgt Mike Frizzell

I kind of feel like cannon fodder here, especially after Ms. George complained to the committee about how she was treated, and then she sat here and made allegations against me that I've heard for the first time. I'm not sure how the chief human resources officer justifies saying I was such a bad person, and yet nobody ever sat down with me and explained to me all of these allegations. I would have liked the chance back then to deal with that.

But that aside, Ms. George contacted me on the Thursday before I was removed—her office did—asking to see me. I said yes, and then I started thinking about it and called back and asked why. To make a long story short, I was told it was about a phone call I had made. Obviously it's the phone call I made to Ms. Burton, but at the time I believed it was a phone call I had made to Great-West Life when I'd learned about half a million dollars being taken out of the insurance fund.

Now, Ms. George has been nice enough to say that I failed to understand the intricacies of that investigation. No one has ever pointed that out to me. In fact, I made a presentation directly to Ms. George in February of this year, where Ms. George would have had plenty of opportunity to set me straight or to realize I was pretty serious and have somebody else set me straight. Instead, out of that meeting, Mr. Gork sent me an e-mail telling me:

I want to thank both of you, especially Mike, not only for all the work you've done, but for your ability to put it together in a package that someone as untrained as myself can understand. You did a great job this a.m. with the CHRO, Mike. You bring credit, not only to the investigation, but to yourself. Good on you.

That was February 2005.

So I thought it had to do with this money, but I found out otherwise, and was told that Ms. George was gunning for me. You've heard about her trip to see Mr. LaFosse.

Anyway, that aside, come Monday morning, when I was supposed to go to see her, I hadn't heard back from her on why she wanted to see me. I felt that was important, because I felt she was involved in removing this money from the insurance plans. So I sent her an e-mail that morning:

I would like to meet with you to discuss further moneys that had been removed from the members' insurance plans, but if the topic is something else, then, as per my last e-mail, I would appreciate knowing what it is so that I might properly prepare.

That e-mail was sent at 10:22. I was supposed to see Ms. George in her office at 10:30. Within 40 to 45 minutes of that, Mr. Lang and Mr. Newman showed up at my door to give me the famous order you've all heard about. There was no mention of anything to do with Ottawa, other than the line that Ms. George mentioned. When I challenged it, Mr. Lang didn't know anything about it, but Mr. Newman was extremely preoccupied with the fact that I should have been at the CHRO's office and I wasn't, and how dare I not show up at the CHRO's office as demanded.

All I said to him was that there were an awful lot of ranks, as he could clearly see, between me and the chief human resources officer of the RCMP; that it was not appropriate for her to be calling me there, and certainly not appropriate for her to be calling me there without my knowing why. There was absolutely no question in my mind, due to the conversation with Mr. Newman, due to the e-mails, due to the fact I was supposed to be in her office at the time, that I was being removed from the investigation because of Ms. George and the money taken out of the insurance plans.

That's a long answer.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Before we proceed to the next question, you referred to a number of e-mails. Have those e-mails been tabled? If they have not, could you table them, please.

4:05 p.m.

S/Sgt Mike Frizzell

No, they've not been tabled.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

And will you table them?

4:05 p.m.

S/Sgt Mike Frizzell

If I am permitted to, I will, yes.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Well, you are permitted.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB

You're instructed to.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Yes, “instructed” would be a better word.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON

Chief Superintendent Macaulay, are you aware of any other details or conversations with any of the assistant commissioners, or any other detail that you can provide us on this particular removal?

4:05 p.m.

C/Supt Fraser Macaulay

I had a conversation in mid-June, just prior to Mr. Frizzell's removal, with my boss, Assistant Commissioner LaFosse. He had come in one morning and asked me to see him. I sat in his office and he advised me that he had just had a phone call from Deputy Commissioner George looking for him to remove Mike Frizzell from the investigation, and that he had directed her to Bruce Rogerson.

The only other time I had a conversation since, or the next time I had a conversation, was shortly after February 21. Mr. LaFosse was able at one point to see the blues, and his exact quote to me was: “Why did she lie? She knows she called me.”

So we've had a couple of conversations since then around that same subject.

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON

Thank you.

Chair, I'd like to table a document from January 5, 2004, a request for investigation from Mr. Ron Lewis to Deputy Commissioner Barb George, which, in its original form, had a 16-page attachment of violations. My question relates to this document, and it's to Ms. George.

Ms. George, what did you do with this document?

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Go ahead.

4:05 p.m.

D/Commr Barbara George

Mr. Chair, I'm not aware of the document. Could I see the document, please?

Mr. Chair, I don't recall seeing this document. But what it is is Ron Lewis asking me to go forward with unsolicited complaints from senior officers concerning the conduct of the former CHRO, Jim Ewanovich. It outlines a couple of the issues and it outlines consequences of inaction, etc.

Now, when Ron Lewis testified on Monday of this week, he talked of the fact that he and I had met extensively in my office, at which time I agreed with Ron Lewis that I could not carry out the functions as CHRO if the RCMP did not call for a criminal investigation. The next morning I told him that I would go in to speak with the commissioner and say exactly that, that we needed to have a criminal investigation called.

If this document were in my hands, it might have gone forward. I'm not in my office at the moment so I can't track it. But as Ron Lewis attested to himself, I did go back to the commissioner after our long meeting--with Ron Lewis--and say to the commissioner that I could not continue to function, and in fact it would be getting nowhere, if he didn't call a criminal investigation into this situation that was still bubbling up.

Mr. Chair, may I respond to both Mr. Frizzell's and Mr. Macaulay's comments, please?

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Sure.

4:05 p.m.

D/Commr Barbara George

Thank you.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB

On a point of order, we're talking about an e-mail and we're talking about a criminal investigation. What's the date of that e-mail, and what--

4:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

It's all going to be tabled, Mr. Williams.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB

Yes, but I want to know the date. Is this part of that two-day criminal investigation or not?

4:05 p.m.

D/Commr Barbara George

It's January 5, 2004. When Ron Lewis was testifying on Monday, he was talking about a conversation that he and I had had. He said November. In my mind, as I'm listening to his conversation, that meeting between us took place in early January and he was laying out all of the noise around it. At the end of it, I said, “Ron, I agree, we need to have a criminal investigation called into this matter; otherwise it's useless, no CHRO can move forward.”