Public Accounts Committee on April 18th, 2007

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you.

Ms. Revine states that her position was cut. She said that under oath.

Here is a further quote: “...I was the only one who did not have a position...[identified]. In April, they gave me a letter saying that my position...[was being] abolished.”

And the deputy commissioner said, “I believe that on her doctor's orders she has been precluded from working within the office, and I believe there are issues there. We have accommodated her, and as I said, she has been working from home.”

Again, the testimony leads one to believe that this great favour was being done for Ms. Revine, who had problems, but you're suggesting to us that it was for structural reasons. Do you stand by this?

Let me ask you this question. Did anybody at all ever have any discussions with you in any regard at all with respect to Ms. Revine's position within the organization, or about her? Did anybody ever talk to you about her in any way, shape, or form—about her work, her job, her future, anything ever—anyone you can recall?

[Rosalie Burton]

I can recall having a conversation. She was declared surplus. She received her letter in April, and that was based on a budget decision. That's the information I had at that time.

I can recall a conversation down the road that I had with a peer of mine, a director general in human resources, Assistant Commissioner Kevin Mole, and I asked him if he had meaningful work for Denise Revine--she was a PE-6, director level--and if he did, would he please contact her directly and make arrangements as soon as possible. And he did, to the best of my knowledge, do that.

So I did have that conversation with him, but it was a couple of months later.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Okay.

Mr. Wrzesnewskyj, you have three minutes.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Ms. Revine whistle-blows on potential serious criminality involving Mr. Ewanovich. She goes to her superior, Mr. Macaulay. Mr. Ewanovich, whom you've known since your university days, invited him to university to a panel, and soon afterwards Ms. Revine is deemed surplus, Mr. Macaulay is moved off by Mr. Zaccardelli to DND, and Mr. Ewanovich selects you, Ms. Burton, to replace Mr. Macaulay in his position. Is that correct?

[Rosalie Burton]

My understanding is that it was not Mr. Ewanovich who selected me to replace Chief Superintendent Fraser Macaulay.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Mr. Macaulay, would you like to clarify that?

[C/Supt Fraser Macaulay]

There would be a selection board run by, at that time, I believe...well, it would have been Barb George, who was the Assistant Commissioner of EODR at that point. That would be her role, along with the senior executive committee that makes that decision.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you.

Deputy Commissioner George, on December 17, 2003, you received a formal complaint alleging fraudulent activity in the accrual, usage, and cash-out of leave for Mr. Ewanovich. In your response to the complaint, you indicated that you were satisfied that Assistant Commissioner Gork had conducted a very in-depth and professional investigation and that the conclusions were sound.

Chair, I'll be tabling some additional documents today. I've already tabled leave documents recording that on January 6, 2004, two weeks after you received the complaint and the investigation had already been initiated, the leave file was significantly altered.

Deputy Commissioner George, is that not obstruction of justice?

[D/Commr Barbara George]

That leave file was not in my hands, and I don't believe Jim Ewanovich had it in his hands either.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Is that not obstruction of justice?

[D/Commr Barbara George]

I'd have to look at the file. This was turned over to Dave Gork, who undertook that investigation.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

If it's correct that it was adjusted two weeks afterwards, is that not obstruction of justice?

[D/Commr Barbara George]

Mr. Wrzesnewskyj, with all due respect, I'd have to ask you a question, as an investigator. Was the leave file updated? Had it been left un-updated? I don't know what happened there, so I can't answer that.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

So we have heard allegations of the destruction of evidence and now of alteration of documents, alteration of minutes. We have also heard that there were communications with the government, with the Ministry of Justice, about deciding what evidence will be brought forward before us.

Thank you, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Do you have a response, Ms. George?

[D/Commr Barbara George]

I don't know exactly which one to address. But I'll talk about the leave document. Oftentimes, people have leave documents—anybody can have a leave document—and they have taken leave, but they have not updated.

Now, I cannot speak for Mr. Ewanovich; he's not here. I don't know whether his staff updated his document to show that the time had been taken. This should have been looked at by Assistant Commissioner Gork, when he undertook the whole investigation into Mr. Ewanovich's leave file.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Fitzpatrick, you have three minutes.

[Brian Fitzpatrick, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Ms. Burton, you were in charge of the insurance end of the operation, and you must have been questioned by Sergeant Frizzell. Did you find his kind of questioning personally harassing to you?

[Rosalie Burton]

I want to be very clear here—

[Brian Fitzpatrick, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Just answer my question, please.

[Rosalie Burton]

The insurance—

[Brian Fitzpatrick, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Yes or no.

[Rosalie Burton]

The insurance program is chaired by a deputy commissioner of central region, and I am not in charge of the insurance program.

[Brian Fitzpatrick, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Did you find the investigation harassing when he was questioning you?

[Rosalie Burton]

He did not interview me as a witness, sir.