Public Accounts Committee on April 30th, 2007

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Okay.

[C/Supt Fraser Macaulay]

What I do know is that the workforce adjustment process was not followed. There is a public service reverse order of merit process that was highlighted and asked about, and it wasn't followed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

That's fine. You're out of time, David.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Mr. Chair, at some point Ms. Burton should be given a chance—

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Yes, we will get back to her.

Mr. Wrzesnewskyj, you have eight minutes.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

When I finished off in the last round we heard there was a punitive transfer of the whistle-blower. There was an OPP investigation, we've heard previously, as a result of which Mr. Gauvin and Mr. Ewanovich had to take ethics training. But internally, we've now heard there was a punitive transfer. Mr. Rogerson, just for clarity, the commissioner was...?

[A/Commr Bruce Rogerson]

The commissioner of the day?

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Yes.

[A/Commr Bruce Rogerson]

It was Commissioner Zaccardelli.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Estabrooks, was there anything unusual about the process around the access to information request for the Ottawa Police investigation, and what were these?

[Keith Estabrooks]

Unusual in what circumstance, are you asking, in time or in...?

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

From the usual process that would take place for an access to information request.

[Keith Estabrooks]

The usual process is that something of only about 50 pages would probably take us 30 days--60 days legislated under the act. You can apply for an extension, but no extensions were applied on this. What I noticed was that it took a long time to do this. It took approximately, for 50 pages, about nine months or more to process.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

You had mentioned that legislatively it should have been 60 days, yet this was delayed for nine months. What would have caused those delays?

[Keith Estabrooks]

Well, we had numerous...I don't know if you should say interference, but we had a lot of “heads up” going out. We had things like legal opinions, where it went to legal for approximately six months and it sat there. It was returned after the six-month time period. It came back down and I think it stayed in our office approximately a week and it was sent back for a second legal opinion. Surely one legal opinion would suffice on 50 pages. But it just seemed that everything was a stall tactic from the beginning, when it started.

My colleague Norm Sirois had looked at the file originally, having been asked to do an informal request. I believe he could probably answer that question under the previous OIC, who was Superintendent Picard.

The officer under whom I was serving at the time when I was asked to look at this request and process it was Superintendent Pierre Lavoie. I had looked at it, reviewed it, being a senior member. I had approximately 12 years of experience with this kind of file. He didn't quite agree with what I was going to release, so I was removed from the file. In the long run it was passed to another reviewer, but at that time I was told he was going to do it, along with the lawyer from the Department of Justice, who has been Louis Alberti. They decided what the final release package was, and I understand it was quite heavily vetted at the time.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

You mentioned Mr. Lavoie. You referenced your many years of experience. Where would Mr. Lavoie have been previous to arriving just recently at that time--at access to information?

[Keith Estabrooks]

I believe he came from Deputy Commissioner Gauvin's office, which would have been finance. He was transferred on a promotion. He was an inspector in finance. He was promoted to superintendent to transfer to our branch as the officer in charge.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

You also used the terms “stall tactic” and “interference”. Is there any particular location from which this interference or these stall tactics were coming?

[Keith Estabrooks]

The branch is set up so that when we have requests going out, heads-up are given to ES&ML, which is the ministerial liaison unit, and to media relations. I was also told to send a heads-up with the package, what we were going to send out, to Deputy Commissioner Gauvin and to the assistant commissioner at the time, George. They weren't on the usual list of where we sent things, but Superintendent Lavoie insisted that they go there.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

So that was somewhat unusual.

[Keith Estabrooks]

It's very unusual to have someone who is named in a report be able to read what we're going to release or send out and be able to comment on it.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Then we had a nine-month stall.

Sir, on Wednesday, April 18, I tabled a motion in public accounts committee for you to appear before the committee and I also requested a number of ATIP documents. That Friday, April 20, just before the offices of access to information at the RCMP were closing, at 4:55 p.m., I understand Mr. Gauvin's executive assistant showed up, demanding to have document A5. Can you relate these very strange circumstances that occurred after my motion in public accounts committee for a number of documents, for an executive assistant of Mr. Gauvin to show up at access to information, demanding a document? What exactly is this document A5?

[Keith Estabrooks]

I was off that day. I'm a casual employee now, so I'm usually only in two days a week. I was told when I returned to work that I believe it was Inspector Cowan who had shown up at approximately 4:55 on the Friday and had been led into the secure area by a Corporal Swim.

He was escorted to Acting Sergeant Lee Duchesne. Lee has taken over my position since I retired. She spoke with him, and he said he had a piece of paper he identified as an e-mail and that he was looking for allegations I had made against Deputy Gauvin as far as the ATIP interference running within our ATIP files.

At that time, Acting Sergeant Duchesne phoned Sergeant Jeff Hurry, who is with policy, on his cell phone. He spoke with the inspector and explained to him the proper procedure to access. At that time, I understand, he was escorted out of the secure area.

I'm not quite sure what he was looking for. Obviously, he was looking for information that I was going to give before the committee.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

That's an incredibly serious set of circumstances. The committee, in that motion, requested a number of documents, and you have Mr. Gauvin's executive assistant showing up just before close, demanding documents, not following normal procedures.

Did you keep a copy of this particular document A5?

[Keith Estabrooks]

I'm not sure if he was after the particular document I have. When I went back to work part-time, as a casual employee, I was asked to look at the pension file again by Corporal Luc Poulin, and he suggested I take a look because I was familiar with all these files. When I was going through the files, I noticed there were documents missing that I had written, with no rhyme nor reason as to why they would be missing. The typed memos I had put on were there, but there was a particular one I had handwritten, which I have brought with me. It's not on the file that we can find.

I kept a copy when I left. When I retired I kept my notes. I've gone through them. I have a photocopy of the A5, which has been translated for the House.