Evidence of meeting #53 for Public Accounts in the 39th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was investigation.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
When you referred to your boss, was that also Mr. Gauvin?
Assistant Commissioner, Technical Operations, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Liberal
Deputy Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
I recall quite vividly the afternoon that Assistant Commissioner Rogerson came into my office. I was the chief superintendent at the time, in charge of officer staffing.
He came in, and I could see that he was quite agitated. He's a very tall man, so it was difficult for me to look straight up and speak to him. I wanted him to sit, but he wouldn't.
In his hands he had a great many papers, and he wanted to show me that he had this correspondence going back and forth for several weeks or months, in which he had voiced his concerns regarding certain actions or activities that had taken place within the corporate sector.
I remember his telling me, “You know, Barb, I'll tell you right up front that I actually took one of these hockey tickets. So I'm implicating myself here, but this has to go forward, because it's not stopping.”
I listened to Assistant Commissioner Rogerson and said, “Well Bruce, you have to go down to the commissioner on this and give the commissioner all of this information to get something looked at.”
For his own reasons, he did not want to do that. I said, “Bruce, I'm seized with this now, so I will go down to the commissioner with these papers.” He was agreeable to that. He gave me all the papers, all the correspondence, and he left.
As I said, he was visibly upset. I took the papers down to Commissioner Zaccardelli. I presented him with the papers. I gave him a brief overview about what the papers contained and what Assistant Commissioner Rogerson had communicated to me. At the end of this, that was it; I handed it over.
Shortly thereafter, the OPP investigation commenced. I believe that investigation was called Wapiti. I wanted to add that this was the commencement of the OPP's Wapiti investigation.
Conservative
John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
I'm sorry that I keep having to interrupt like this, but we're into the proverbial “he said, she said” bit right here. This is a committee doing an investigation. We're here to put testimony on the record. We're not here to have a quasi-informal trial of one person saying something and then allegations being rebutted by somebody else.
We have to fix this, Mr. Chairman.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
Mr. Williams, on the problem with this line of questioning, this investigation has to deal with the report of the Auditor General, and we are getting into issues I would classify as not even remotely concerned with the report of the Auditor General. We have some serious issues. How they were dealt with goes to the lack of some oversight of internal organizational behaviour—our allegations about the lack of internal organization behaviour. But if we start going down these roads at every meeting we're going to be here for a very long time.
However, I didn't interrupt the questioning, and I'm certain it was difficult for Mr. Rogerson to put this on the record. It is a serious issue, but I again urge members to stay focused on the issues we're dealing with. I also urge members to keep their questions short. We do not need two-, three-, or four-minute preambles. I'm urging all the witnesses to keep their answers brief and to the point so we can stick to the issues.
Mr. Wrzesnewskyj is out of time.
Monsieur Laforest.
Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I would like to welcome all of our witnesses.
I have a question, Ms. George. You are the RCMP Deputy Commissioner for Human Resources. Can I presume that, in a certain way, official languages falls under your department?
Bloc
Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC
Have you ever heard of a system of consultants who help officers pass their language test so that they don't have to sit their written French tests?
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
Monsieur Laforest, I'm sorry, I'm going to interrupt here. We're trying to deal with the auditor's report about the pension insurance administration. Your concerns may be very serious about official languages, certain people passing their language tests, and certain people not passing them, but as chair I totally fail to see the relevance of where this is going, unless you can explain it.
Bloc
Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC
Mr. Chairman, I know that the RCMP has an official languages policy and that its members must be bilingual. Since the beginning of our discussions with representatives of the RCMP, none of the officers and people who have testified have ever spoken French. I say this with respect for the people who wish to express themselves in their mother tongue. Normally, they should answer us in French. However, I have never heard them do so. I am asking this question because I received an e-mail on the issue, which was also sent to Ms. George. I would like to ask her a question on this matter, to find out how she would react.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
I ask you to be very brief on that issue. If you have a concern, I urge you to seek an audience with the official languages committee. Give a very brief question on that point.
Bloc
Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC
Ms. George, I'm asking you whether you have ever heard of this. It seems that your teacher, Ms. Rundle, helped officers to make it easier for them on their French tests. What did you do about it?
Deputy Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Could I have some more clarity around that, please? You're explaining that we've had people come in as lunch-box teachers, or we've had classes set up in-house. There are many different ways the RCMP allows its members to take French-language training.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
Let's move on to the next issue, Monsieur Laforest. We can deal with this off topic later on.
Bloc
Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC
Mr. Chairman, I believe this is a relevant issue. I object to your not letting me put the question. I am asking Ms. George to answer a question about an e-mail she received.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
How is it relevant? I will allow it if you can explain how this is relevant to the issue.
Bloc
Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC
From the beginning, we have talked about the situation within the RCMP and the fact that some people intervene to prevent others from climbing through the ranks. Some people were removed from their position, and others could have climbed the ranks more quickly. The language issue is important because it is a basic requirement for being promoted, as it is in many departments.
I am asking Ms. George whether there was favouritism with regard to official languages and promotions. This issue is not only one of official languages, but it also affects the RCMP.
Deputy Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
For certain positions in the RCMP, we have language profiles, and prospective candidates must meet whatever the language profiles are. The RCMP will accommodate as far as possible to allow the candidate—
Bloc
Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC
Ms. George, you received an e-mail from Mr. Gord Hadley informing you of certain things. Let me repeat his words: "—of abuse, not to mention cheating concerning official language training and passing exams—". Mr. Hadley pointed out that you yourself, Ms. George, had Ms. Rundle as your teacher and, according to the e-mail, she helped many officers pass their tests. What did you do after you received this e-mail?
Deputy Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
The teacher you're speaking of, Madam Rundle, has had tens, if not hundreds, of RCMP members and public servants throughout the government.
We have to go down and pass public service oral and written exams, as does anybody else.
She's an extraordinary teacher, and for anybody to come in and say that there was cheating there, I absolutely reject that. In fact, many deputy commissioners have used and are still using her services. She has many teachers in her school.