Evidence of meeting #55 for Public Accounts in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was contracts.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5:25 p.m.
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
Thank you, Chair.
Mr. Marshall, you've been quoted a couple of times and I'll do it again. You said, “the whole thing stinks”.
When Mr. Crupi was asked about these contracts, he stated several times that he's not an expert in procurement.
Mr. Minto, you stated that it's quite evident that collusion between departments has taken place to circumvent the rules.
Mr. Crupi, are you expert in finding the loopholes to circumvent the rules?
5:25 p.m.
As an Individual
As I said, sir, I hired an individual to handle my procurement issues. I assumed and I believe he followed all the rules.
5:25 p.m.
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
Your name is mentioned over and over in the KPMG report. It seems that you are quite expert at this.
5:25 p.m.
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
Mr. Minto, you made this statement about collusion between departments. From what you've seen in the reports, from what you've heard, would you see Mr. Crupi as a central figure in this situation?
5:25 p.m.
Chief Risk Officer, Public Works and Government Services Canada
Like you, I saw his name mentioned quite a few times in the report. Really, you don't have to be a procurement expert to do the right thing. The issue here is allowing all Canadians equal access to these contracts and to this business. That's the issue, the principle that's been violated. You don't have to be a procurement expert to deal with that. Yes, I saw his name, like you, many, many times in the reports.
5:25 p.m.
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
You had referenced and said there was collusion between departments, meaning there have to be individuals between those departments who come together and collude. From what you've read, from what you've heard, would you suspect Mr. Crupi as being a central figure in this collusion?
5:25 p.m.
Chief Risk Officer, Public Works and Government Services Canada
Mr. Chairman, my knowledge of these transactions primarily comes from the detailed reports that KPMG did. In those reports there are references to e-mails being sent for people for preferred sources. Really, our concern is a lot more on the Public Works side. For us, CAC, which was supposed to have protected the integrity of the contracting process, even if they got those requests, should have said no, even if you want that, we will go through a proper process.
On the question you asked, I have a problem answering because it deals with intentions and motivation. The report doesn't deal with intentions and motivation.
5:25 p.m.
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
Thank you, Mr. Minto.
We do see a pattern here with the contracts. Certain people seem to win the contracts. We've just heard the Auditor General's report about nepotism. Mr. Crupi explained that he hired a third party to circumvent—as you said before, it appears rules are being circumvented—the rules and in that particular case 49 of 65 of the hires, quite a percentage, were family and friends. I guess family and friends were well taken care of.
We've just heard the case of Sharon Prenger. I guess there was nobody else to fill that particular job here in Ottawa. I assume a cost-benefit analysis, as Mr. Gauvin has stated, was done, but she was provided with an apartment somewhere in the range of $3,000 per month.
Then, of course, at one of the first meetings a staff member of Mr. Crupi's provided the whole formula, in fact, the mathematical formula on how to defraud the pension fund to pay for golfing friends at St. Andrews by-the-Sea.
This brings me to a question I'd asked you previously, Mr. Gauvin. You were part of the group that was golfing. At the last meeting before us here, we talked about ethics and the fact that you had to go for ethics training after the OPP investigation into the RCMP. It's not a big amount. But have you cut the $100 cheque to the pension fund to repay them for that golfing weekend?
5:30 p.m.
D/Commr Paul Gauvin
No, I haven't, but what I have been doing is looking up every name of every person who was present there, and I'm writing everybody a letter and asking every one of them who played golf to cut a cheque and remit it to the Receiver General for accrediting to the pension fund, including myself.
5:30 p.m.
D/Commr Paul Gauvin
Including Mr. Crupi.
5:30 p.m.
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
Mr. Crupi, you were requested to provide the reference letters that allowed you to acquire the job at the Communications Security Establishment, the top-secret agency that we have here that listens in on all communications in the country. Have you finally done that?
5:30 p.m.
As an Individual
Yes. First of all, I misunderstood at the time. You asked me if I could provide references. I said I could. I thought I heard you say you could get them at a later date. I thought I was going to be asked, but anyway, I have provided them today.
5:30 p.m.
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
Chair, as a point of order, we haven't seen them. I understand he hasn't provided the letters, but we have names.
5:30 p.m.
As an Individual
I never provided letters. I just gave names when I applied.
5:30 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
He has provided three names: Mr. Bernie Bartley, director, Public Works and Government Services Canada, retired; Mr. Vernon White, chief of police, Durham Region; and Mr. David Richardson, head of parts department for a dealership.
This is just in his own handwriting and was done today.
5:30 p.m.
Liberal
5:30 p.m.
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
And was Vernon White not the assistant CHRO, right underneath Mr. Ewanovich?
5:30 p.m.
Liberal
5:30 p.m.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON
Mr. Smith, you indicated that you had been cleared by the Ethics Commissioner. In fact, that is not the case. You were not cleared for this matter here. This pie of shame we have here happened before you were a member of Parliament, and as a result it was not under the Ethics Commissioner's purview to even review it, and he said so in his report. He did not clear you for any of this.
In fact, what we've learned here today is that you were hired and given a piece of the pie in order to help your cousin break the rules; that's what happened here. Your cousin wanted to direct a contract to someone who was not eligible to receive it, so they hired middlemen and paid them out in order to get the contract from point A to point B.
You've tried to absolve yourself by saying that you turned over the company to your children and your wife when you went on to become a public servant and later a Liberal MP.
How old were your children when they took over the company?
5:30 p.m.
As an Individual
Mr. Chairman, there is something I would like to clarify. Abotech was a human resources placement firm. It matched people, employees, with jobs.
I mean that these people were placed with—
5:30 p.m.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON
How old were your children?
How old were your children when you handed your business over to them?