Evidence of meeting #55 for Public Accounts in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was contracts.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5 p.m.
Conservative
Brian Fitzpatrick Conservative Prince Albert, SK
Right.
There are some serious questions about how some of these things were scored--do you not agree with me?
5 p.m.
Conservative
Brian Fitzpatrick Conservative Prince Albert, SK
On that skill registration system, the system would pop up three or four outfits that would be qualified for that, and you'd approach them in a very short timeframe to get them in. From what I can gather, your audit showed that Abotech didn't show up on that system, but Mr. Brazeau or somebody at the CAC managed to make sure they got put on the list, even though they didn't show up as having the qualifications.
5 p.m.
Associate Partner, KPMG
Abotech was in the skills registration system, registered as a company, but when you do the searches for some of these contracts that occurred within the NCPC, the keywords they used to search wouldn't reveal the resources they wanted.
5 p.m.
Conservative
Brian Fitzpatrick Conservative Prince Albert, SK
Okay, good.
I'm running out of time, but I want to ask Mr. Marshall an important question.
I really thank Mr. Marshall for being here today. I'm really quite pleased with the action he took. This is what I think the public expects from public servants when they find things are out of whack.
In my mind, when I look through this audit with the 45 contracts and use the analogy of dice, if you roll the dice 45 times, it seems to me that certain people would get snake eyes every time, the way this whole set-up was arranged, and the other people who were bidding on this thing would have been suckers to be involved in that process. Is that a fair characterization?
5 p.m.
Deputy Minister, Public Works and Government Services Canada
Mr. Fitzpatrick, it certainly looks as though the people who Mr. Brazeau and Mr. Crupi wanted hired got hired, so there wasn't a fair process.
5 p.m.
Liberal
May 7th, 2007 / 5 p.m.
Bloc
Jean-Yves Roy Bloc Haute-Gaspésie—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Gauvin, when you appeared before the committee on February 21, the matter of the $3.4 million flagged by the Auditor General was raised. When asked if the money had been reimbursed, you answered in the affirmative. However, you added the following:
Now there is another amount. There are expenditures that were charged for work of little or no value.
The amount in question was $340,000. Is that what we're talking about here today?
5:05 p.m.
D/Commr Paul Gauvin
Yes, sir, that is correct.
5:05 p.m.
Bloc
Jean-Yves Roy Bloc Haute-Gaspésie—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC
You are telling us that the issue before us today is $340,000 worth of work of little or no value. That is what you are telling me. I want my question to be clear. What you are saying is that you did not receive the appropriate services for the money charged. That is what you said.
5:05 p.m.
D/Commr Paul Gauvin
That is not quite right. The Auditor General reviewed certain transactions and was of the view that some involved work of little or no value. The amount in question includes a little more than $600,000 paid to Consulting and Audit Canada.
5:05 p.m.
Bloc
Jean-Yves Roy Bloc Haute-Gaspésie—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC
Afterwards, still on the subject of the $3.4 million, you added, and I quote:
That was reimbursed, except for approximately $340,000 in fees paid to advisors and consultants hired by Consulting and Audit Canada.
This was for work that you said had no value, those were your words. You also said, and I quote: "There is a 15% charge for that work." Now you are telling us that that is not quite what you said.
You said that the $340,000 was used to pay advisors and consultants hired by Consulting and Audit Canada, and that the work was of no value.
5:05 p.m.
D/Commr Paul Gauvin
Yes, that is what I said. I would rather speak in English to better explain myself.
There was an amount that was a little over $600,000—I think it was $660,000, maybe—that was paid to Consulting and Audit Canada for what we're talking about here today, for the 15% fees for consultants who were referred to the RCMP. Out of that amount, there was a small amount that was not pension. So it ended up to be around $600,000.
Of that amount, Public Works has now reimbursed $200,000. Initially, our discussion was that not all the work had been done as it should have been done—they admitted that—but they also said that many of the contracts were processed as they should've been. So there's still around $400,000—a bit less, $373,000—outstanding.
Mr. Marshall has said here today that we are still negotiating that amount. Hopefully, in the very near future we'll come to a conclusion.
5:05 p.m.
Bloc
Jean-Yves Roy Bloc Haute-Gaspésie—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC
Thank you, Mr. Gauvin.
I also have a question for Mr. Brazeau. Mr. Brazeau, in answer to a previous question, you twice said that it was standard practice for the Government of Canada to go through third-party companies to hire public servants who could not otherwise be hired without incurring a penalty.
What are you basing your assertion on?
5:05 p.m.
Bloc
Jean-Yves Roy Bloc Haute-Gaspésie—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC
That may well have been the case at Consulting and Audit Canada, but what about elsewhere? Why did you say that it is standard practice within the Government of Canada? Why did you say that it is a regular occurrence within the Government of Canada?
5:05 p.m.
As an Individual
It is a way of allowing people to take their retirement and then start working for the government again the following day or the day after.
5:05 p.m.
Bloc
Jean-Yves Roy Bloc Haute-Gaspésie—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC
You said that it was common practice within the Government of Canada. You did not say that it was an issue unique to Consulting and Audit Canada, you said that it happens across the government.
5:05 p.m.
As an Individual
I said that because we deal with external clients, with all other departments.
5:05 p.m.
Bloc
Jean-Yves Roy Bloc Haute-Gaspésie—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC
Are you saying that all the other departments understood and accepted how you operated? Is that what you are saying, yes or no?
5:05 p.m.
Bloc
Jean-Yves Roy Bloc Haute-Gaspésie—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC
Thank you, I wanted to hear it from you.
5:05 p.m.
Bloc
Jean-Yves Roy Bloc Haute-Gaspésie—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC
In your opinion, what other departments tolerated this practice?
I will come back to you a little later, Mr. Marshall. I'm saving my last question for you.
5:05 p.m.
Liberal
