Public Accounts Committee on May 14th, 2007

[A/Commr John Spice]

I suppose from the perspective of behaviour.... Denise was doing an A-based review, as I understand it, and came upon the irregularities. But the fact of the matter is that the behavioural issues, the abuse of power and authority and the lack of leadership and positive interaction with employees within NCPC, ultimately would have come to my attention, I think. I had an open-door policy, and I believe, quite frankly, that I had the trust of the membership, of the employees. So ultimately it would have come to my attention. I don't know if we would have gotten to where we are right now, because she was the one who raised the issue of irregularities around the pension fund, and thank God she did.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you, Mr. Spice.

Mr. Sweet, five minutes, and that will be it.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'll share my time with Mr. Williams.

Mr. Gauvin, the two funds, the insurance fund and the pension fund--since 1995 the previous government removed the capability of you being able to charge the administration to the A-base funding. Is that correct?

[D/Commr Paul Gauvin]

I wasn't there in 1995, but that could have very well happened, yes.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

I've asked you about issues of the $200,000 entry, a $400,000 entry. You had very good memory around that. The advisory committee role that you played, was that one you did with disdain--you didn't want to be involved with that?

[D/Commr Paul Gauvin]

I don't believe that's right. I served on that committee and worked as hard as I could, as well as other members.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

I'm curious because as soon as I ask questions around those meetings, your memory isn't quite as good.

[D/Commr Paul Gauvin]

What part of my memory?

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Specifically, around a significant contract, Morneau Sobeco, a supplier you have that now operates both funds. You didn't recall a meeting that you sat in, which is substantial, because we're talking about a big contract where the parameters of the RFP were actually introduced at a meeting--

[D/Commr Paul Gauvin]

Are we talking about the pension or the insurance?

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

The pension.

[D/Commr Paul Gauvin]

Oh, I was definitely involved in the pension advisory committee and that contract, yes. That proposal would have come to that committee. I have no problem with memory on that.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Right. But I asked you earlier if you sat in on that meeting and you said you didn't remember.

[D/Commr Paul Gauvin]

Oh, no. You asked me if I was in on the meeting when Morneau Sobeco did a data presentation on what it would be like to have an outsourced--

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

That's correct.

[D/Commr Paul Gavin]

That's not when the contract was awarded to Morneau Sobeco. I'm sorry, I didn't understand the question.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

What was the nature of the contract for Morneau Sobeco then for the pension fund?

[D/Commr Paul Gauvin]

It was an RFP to outsource the pension fund.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

I'm sorry, you're confusing me now. You just said it wasn't, then it was.

[D/Commr Paul Gauvin]

The meeting I believe you were talking about was a meeting where the chairman of the committee invited Morneau Sobeco to come in and do a presentation on what it would be like to have an outsourced pension fund, pension administration, because that had never been done in the government before.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Okay, so now we're on the right track.

Were you aware that the presentation they did, the information they gave, was what was used for the RFP afterwards?

[D/Commr Paul Gauvin]

No, I'm not aware of that. I don't think that would have been the same information. No.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

You don't think it's the same information?

[D/Commr Paul Gauvin]

No. The RFP was a fairly detailed document with a lot of detailed information and detailed figures.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Then could you tell me, as a member of the pension advisory committee, what other people who you had in to share additional information, other than Morneau Sobeco, on the outsourcing of that?