Public Accounts Committee on May 14th, 2007

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

I understand that, but you're the chief financial officer. You were the one with the financial gravitas on the pension advisory committee, and all of this went by you absolutely unnoticed. All of these activities we're talking about, where we actually had a deputy minister here saying that many of those processes were rigged, were you not aware of any of this?

[D/Commr Paul Gauvin]

We were unaware. He wasn't aware either. This was a collusion between two individuals.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Yes, but you were active in operations there, sir, a chief financial officer.

[D/Commr Paul Gauvin]

How would we have known that these contracts were not being given out as they should have been given out?

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Well, one of the things would have been the escalating costs. Wouldn't that have alerted you at the time?

[D/Commr Paul Gauvin]

The escalating costs--we looked at that many times. The problem with the escalating costs is that we also had to implement Bill C-78, which was a new pension act, and as a result of that, we had to produce financial statements. As a result of that, we had to get rate information, and all of this was audited both by your internal auditors and the Auditor General every year since the year 2000.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you, Mr. Sweet. Thank you, Mr. Gauvin.

Colleagues, it's adjournment time. I'm in the hands of the committee.

Mr. Christopherson.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

At the risk of possible repercussions down the road, I move that the committee sit until 6:30.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Does anybody have any difficulty with that?

Mr. Laforest.

[Jean-Yves Laforest, Bloc, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Mr. Chairman, could we extend the meeting until 6:30 or until the end of the next five-minute round?

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

The round we're in has five people left at five minutes each. That will take about half an hour.

Okay, I sense direction from the committee to do that.

Mr. Roy, cinq minutes, sil vous plaît.

[Jean-Yves Roy, Bloc, Haute-Gaspésie—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I would like to come back to Mr. Girard.

I would first like to say that the expression you were looking for a little earlier was "collateral damage". I wanted to come back to the subject because Mr. Spice referred to it.

I would like to know—even though you already partly answered—why you asked for documents relating to the RCMP pension fund. You said a few moments ago that you wanted to inform your members. Do you remember when you asked for these documents?

[S/Sgt André Girard]

As I remember it, I would say that I asked for them while the investigation was under way. There was a time when I was told that the documents would eventually be available, would be released. When the investigation was over, obviously I must have thought that we needed access to the information, to the documents. The time had come to produce those documents. That was it.

But I did complain about the undue length of time it took to provide me with the documents. At one point, I had agreed to postpone their production, since we did need to allow time for things to be done. But at the end of that period, the time had come to produce them.

After that, I submitted another request for access to the access to information work file. When you submit an access to information request, the access to information section, headed by Mr. Lavoie, opens a file which is then used to process the request. People go look for the information requested, wherever it may be. That's when we ended up with some very interesting information, which is now being followed up right to the Office of the Information Commissioner.

[Jean-Yves Roy, Bloc, Haute-Gaspésie—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

When you submitted your request, were you making any assumptions about what the document contained, or did you have information?

[S/Sgt André Girard]

I would have some difficulty answering that. Someone at the access to information office... Unfortunately, I'll have to get back to you on this, because I'm speaking from memory.

[Jean-Yves Roy, Bloc, Haute-Gaspésie—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Yes.

[S/Sgt André Girard]

The person in question indicated that it might be useful to submit a request for the work file. I had no idea what this was about, or what there could be in the work file. That wasn't indicated to me at the time. I did as the person recommended and submitted the request. It was only when I received the document that I realized there were really specific things in that file which showed where it was going, either to legal services or to the Privy Council Office.

[Jean-Yves Roy, Bloc, Haute-Gaspésie—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

I have a question for Mr. Lavoie. Earlier, in answer to a question, you said that the document was classified as secret because you had received it from the Ottawa police and it was marked "secret".

Can't the RCMP classify its own documents?

[Supt Pierre Lavoie]

That's right. The document came from outside. We at access to information are not responsible for classifying documents. We take them as they are when they arrive.

[Jean-Yves Roy, Bloc, Haute-Gaspésie—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

I agree. However, if I receive a document from outside and I want to keep it secret, then I keep it secret. It's my decision. It was a secret document for the Ottawa police, when it was with them and for as long as the Ottawa police was conducting the investigation, but once the document came to you, it didn't have to stay secret just because it had the word "secret" stamped on it.

[Supt Pierre Lavoie]

I have absolutely no authority to declassify documents. I take them as I receive them.

[Jean-Yves Roy, Bloc, Haute-Gaspésie—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

This was a document from the Ottawa police, not an RCMP document. I am having some trouble with your interpretation.

[Supt Pierre Lavoie]

If you are referring to—

[Jean-Yves Roy, Bloc, Haute-Gaspésie—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

I understand that the Ottawa police service classified the document as "secret", for as long as it was in their offices, but on the day the Ottawa police sent you the document, it became yours, in my view.

[Supt Pierre Lavoie]

It was certainly an RCMP document, but when it arrived in my office, it was classified "secret".