Public Accounts Committee on June 4th, 2007

[Pat Casey]

I believe it was in the order of $600 to $650 a day.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Okay, and for how many days?

[Pat Casey]

I think the final version of the report was published on March 15.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

I need to tell you, Mr. Casey, I have a real problem. If you're being paid $650 a day to simply source information that was already at everybody's hands who were presently at the NCPC, it behooves me to wonder exactly under what professional capacity you were called in. It also really concerns me that you don't find it a conflict at all to be a participant in the criteria of developing a contract, an RFP, and subsequently bid on that, and have no concern that it would give you any kind of specialized knowledge as far as what the contract was all about is concerned.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you, David.

Do you have any comment, Mr. Casey?

[Pat Casey]

I guess because I had done the business case for pensions I was asked by my supervisors to do one for insurance.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you, Mr. Sweet.

Thank you, Mr. Casey.

Mr. Williams.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

You keep referring to supervisors. Can we get the names of the supervisors?

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Yes, could you relay what supervisors you're talking about?

[Pat Casey]

Mr. Garry Roy.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Garry Roy. Thank you, Mr. Sweet.

Mr. Christopherson, you have seven minutes.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you all for being present today.

Mr. Chairman, I indicated to you earlier that I would like to ask that Chief Superintendent Macaulay come forward and be sworn in and testify. I believe he's in the audience.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

I'd like Mr. Macaulay to take a seat beside Mr. Brazeau. The clerk will swear him in.

[Chief Superintendent Fraser Macaulay, Chief Superintendent, Royal Canadian Mounted Police]

I, Fraser Macaulay, do swear that the evidence I shall give on this examination shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help me God.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Mr. Christopherson, your time starts now.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

And I thank the chief superintendent for being here.

I want to draw your attention to comments made by Staff Sergeant Frizzell, who was doing a joint presentation with you. I'm going to ask you a general question and two specific questions, because I'm worried about my time here.

As a general question, could you encapsulate the concerns that you and/or Staff Sergeant Frizzell had about the pattern? That's really what got this going, the patterns in terms of these contract awards, where the amounts are just under the NAFTA amount. There's a sole source that's achieved for a small amount, and then ultimately there are bigger contracts. There was reference to these patterns emerging that gave concern to possible attempts to go around systems. That would be one question, a general question.

Then specifically, Staff Sergeant Frizzell said—and I'm quoting from the record:

Mr. Casey sent the e-mail around saying that this meeting was rescheduled. It was Mr. Roy who replied, “Smooth”. My interpretation of that was everyone had bought the reasoning, even though it was untrue.

Four days later someone from Great-West Life was speaking to Mr. Casey, and her recollection of the conversation was that the way Pat spoke--that's Pat Casey--it almost sounded as if it was a done deal unless the cost was prohibitive. So within four days of being told that Great-West Life could not do the administration of the insurance, it seems there was a done deal with Morneau Sobeco.

So I'd ask you about that specifically, and what exactly is going on.

As quoted later on in the Hansard, Mr. Frizzell also said:

Later that month Mr. Roy and Mr. Casey had another e-mail exchange in which Mr. Roy stated, “Uh-oh, the foxes have the scent”. Mr. Casey's reply seemed to indicate that someone was asking questions about the insurance outsourcing, and he was devising answers that would put her off the scent. Mr. Roy replied, “Sounds good, and we should be able to come out of the closet soon as well”. This would seem to indicate that again they were keeping it well hidden that they were having these negotiations with Morneau Sobeco.

My last question would be, was there a formal police interview with the Caseys?

[C/Supt Fraser Macaulay]

I'll start with the general comment, but I'd first like to put it in context to save your time.

I was not privy to a lot of the investigation. Once I was removed from the organization, the first time I had any information around these issues, other than Mr. Frizzell verbally explaining to me what happened with the insurance, was almost at the same time as you did, which was when the presentation was done. So the analysis of the e-mails, etc., had all been done by the investigators, of which Staff Sergeant Frizzell was one.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

No, I realize once we got the meeting going we should have had staff here.

[C/Supt Fraser Macaulay]

In general, however, yes, the main concern that surfaced from my perspective, once Denise Revine started to find the contracts, the nepotism issues, and the repetitive nature of the extensions, etc., and knowledge of the amount of work and the types of work the folks were doing outside the pension realm...that's where my issues came.

Second, as we've heard here again today, there were these issues around all the people talking about the tickets and the other issues that have never been investigated. It's those issues that led to my concerns around where these contracts and these relationships took us down this path and then of course took off.

So for the specific stuff, unfortunately, you're going to need the investigators here.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

No, I appreciate that.

And the last one, the interview.

[C/Supt Fraser Macaulay]

About the interview, it's my understanding from the two investigators that these folks did not cooperate. But again, Mike Frizzell, Steve Walker, Garry Roy, any of those folks could tell you exactly how that rolled out.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you, I appreciate that.

Let's try going straight to the Caseys. I'll ask, through you, Chair, were you requested to do a police interview during this investigation?

[Kim Casey]

Yes, we were requested and we agreed to do a police interview.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Did that interview take place?

[Kim Casey]

No, it did not.