Public Accounts Committee on June 13th, 2007

[Claude Drouin]

Mr. Christopherson, let say you buy a house from my next-door neighbour but one, for $200,000. I'll try to explain this so that you understand what I'm getting at. You think the house is a good deal, and I suggest you go look at it because I think it's a good price. You buy the house, and then you realize paid $50,000 too much. Is that my fault, or is that your fault? You were the one who signed the contract.

I asked for verification. I signed nothing, and I forced no one to do anything. I hope that is clear. I have said it eight times since I've been here—I asked for verification, and Public Works and Government Services Canada made a decision because it had additional needs for public service employees. It was not supposed to cost a penny, and we were supposed to save a million dollars. That's what I asked for, Mr. Christopherson.

If I had been told it wasn't possible, and that it would cost money—

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

You may have saved a million dollars—

[Claude Drouin]

If I had been told it was impossible, and that it would cost money—

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Brian Fitzpatrick]

Gentlemen, gentlemen.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

You may have saved a million dollars somewhere on paper, but the Canadian taxpayers are out $4 million because of you, and I don't see why.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Brian Fitzpatrick]

Mr. Christopherson, order.

[Claude Drouin]

It's not true.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Well, I don't buy it, sir. I'm sorry, I don't buy it. I do not buy it.

[Claude Drouin]

It's your right.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

That's right.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Brian Fitzpatrick]

We're moving over to Mr. Wrzesnewskyj.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Mr. Drouin, I'm looking at a table that shows the four companies who tendered and the cost per square metre. Have you seen this table?

[Claude Drouin]

No.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Perhaps we could give you a copy.

I'm looking at two columns. One is the gross rental rate and the other is the basic unit operating rate or the per metre operating costs.

I understand from previous testimony that Place Victoria decreased their costs to $308, even though the schedule here shows they started off at $430. But when I also look at the operating costs per metre, Place Bonaventure is at $100—or $99.57—and Place Victoria is at $48.33. So if I factor that in, the difference per metre is that one is at $256 per square metre, as opposed to $237 per square metre; it's not quite a $20 per square metre difference in cost. And, just to use round figures, it's for approximately 6,000 square metres. A lot of numbers have been thrown around, but we're looking at an actual cost difference of $120,000—a real cost difference, as opposed to a fictitious extrapolation.

We've heard in previous testimony that there were employee concerns about disruption. People had worked there for decades in that particular location. Was that ever quantified?

I guess there would have been renovation costs and costs associated with the moving, the first being for preparing a new space. I'm just wondering what those costs may have been for preparing a new space; then the moving costs; and then about the various potential disruptions of employees, and how that did or did not figure into some of the decision-making.

[Claude Drouin]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I appreciate the note that has been handed to me, because I did not have the details of this. I had not seen the final figures. I had simply asked for a verification.

I see there is a difference of $120,000 per year over five years, which makes $600,000; we were talking about over $1 million for the move alone, plus the inconvenience, the loss of productivity, the improvements to the building, etc.

Once again, at the time I wanted to see if we could do something the right way, transparently, and I sent a letter. My work ended there. If I had been turned down, it would have ended there, we would have gone to Place Bonaventure, and I agreed with that entirely. I only wanted to check because people from the public service, from the department... According to what Mr. Gladu told me, the deputy minister did not want to move. He was happy where he was at the time. I only requested a verification, because the Department of Public Works needed extra space.

This confirms to me that they managed to get the cost, down from $430 to $308. Therefore, when you do the calculations, less the move, there was no expense. My goal was not to do that, I only wanted to check. I never asked for anything else, Mr. Chairman.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I'll just pass on to Mr. McCallum.

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm very pleased to be here. I'm normally at the finance committee. The exchange there is a bit less lively, except maybe when we get to income trusts or other examples of mean-spirited, incompetent behaviour by the government.

It is a pleasure to see you, Mr. Drouin. I have only one question to ask you.

Mr. Poilievre said something that I did not really understand about you trying to blame Mr. Goodale. From what I have heard, you did not try to blame Mr. Goodale nor anyone else. I believe you even said that no one is to blame.

Could you give us some explanation on this issue?

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Brian Fitzpatrick]

You have a point of order, Mr. Poilievre?

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Yes. Mr. McCallum was out of order in making false reference to my remarks. He suggests I made comments that I didn't.

What I was pointing out was that by suggesting that he did not make the change himself, he is, by inference, suggesting that it was Mr. Goodale who actually signed on the dotted line for that decision.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Brian Fitzpatrick]

These are matters of debate, and I think we should--

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

So now Mr. McCallum is accusing Mr. Goodale, and I think that's inappropriate.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Brian Fitzpatrick]

Mr. McCallum.

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

It seems to me that Mr. Poilievre did not understand my question, even though it was quite simple.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Brian Fitzpatrick]

Order.

Mr. McCallum, ask your witness questions.

[John McCallum, Liberal, Markham—Unionville, ON]

Do you want me to ask it again, or do you want him to answer?