Evidence of meeting #8 for Public Accounts in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was space.
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Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
So whatever decision was made, it was his decision and, at the end of the day, his decision alone.
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Former Deputy Minister, Public Safety Emergency Preparedness Canada, As an Individual
Yes, although in this case if he made the decision he did and people didn't like it, there were enough people who knew. I assume somebody at the Treasury Board would have had something to say and ministers would have had something to say. It's perhaps overly simplistic, but I agree that in the end the deputy minister is the one who first decides whether or not to recommend the supplementary estimates.
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Conservative
John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
On a point of order, Mr. Chairman, remember Mr. Baker did ask for the supplementary estimates and that it all fell apart from that point forward.
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Conservative
Brian Fitzpatrick Conservative Prince Albert, SK
But he didn't bring it to your attention. He did this on his own?
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Liberal
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Liberal
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Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
Because Mr. Wiersema was brought up before, I'll allow a minute for a question from you, a question from Mr. Christopherson, and a question from Mr. Nadeau--only to Mr. Wiersema because that's fair.
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Liberal
Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON
Mr. Wiersema, you are a CA by profession. With respect to your recollection of the meeting you had in which you had stated your position, do you keep a record or a diary? Do you remember exactly what you said at that meeting?
1:50 p.m.
Deputy Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
No, Mr. Chairman, I don't remember exactly what I said at that meeting. That was over two years ago, and as was established at the last hearing, there were no records of that meeting--something I regret in hindsight now.
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Liberal
Yasmin Ratansi Liberal Don Valley East, ON
You stated--if I read the blues--that this was the opinion you presented to a meeting that Ms. Bloodworth was at. I'm a little confused. Could you explain how you had such a good recollection?
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Deputy Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
As I indicated last time, Mr. Chairman, I received a call from my office late one afternoon indicating that Madam Bloodworth had convened a meeting for that evening, that she'd insisted that I be in attendance at that meeting. I believe that my view was known before, during, and after that meeting. And I consistently maintained that view. I believe it was known by all participants in the meeting. I didn't believe it was necessary to restate my view, but it became very clear to me that it was not my view that was going to carry the day. Nor was it the proper accounting that was going to carry the day in terms of the debates or the decision.
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NDP
David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Thank you, Chair.
I want to follow up with Mr. Wiersema.
I believe you said that you were at a meeting at which the statement was made that there was election consideration? I just want to take you back to that and ask you to restate it for me and identify who said it.
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Deputy Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
I can almost quote the statement because it did stand out in my mind. I believe Madam Bloodworth made the comment: I cannot recommend that to my minister; it will have implications for the upcoming election. That was in reference to seeking supplementary estimates.
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Deputy Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
And it was at that point that it became clear to me that my view was not going to carry the day on this. I communicated my position and my discomfort with what was happening to Mr. Judd, who was my boss at that time, and as I indicated last week at the testimony, this was ultimately a major factor in my decision to resign from that position.
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NDP
David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
I'd love to give you the opportunity to respond, but I don't have any more time.
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Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
Mr. Nadeau, Monsieur Loubier, do you have anything--to Mr. Wiersema only?
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Bloc
Richard Nadeau Bloc Gatineau, QC
Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask you a question, since I am new to the committee.
May I give my time to anyone at the table?
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Bloc
Richard Nadeau Bloc Gatineau, QC
Mr. Williams, do you want to make any additional comments on this issue?
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Conservative
John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This is very nice indeed. This is really collegial today.
My question is to Mr. Wiersema. You had written a letter that has been circulated to all members, but you didn't send the letter. If I can paraphrase the letter, which was to Mr. Pigeon, QC, senior general counsel and head of legal services, basically you say, you look at legal matters and I will look after accounting matters and that's the way it shall be. Then in a memo to Mr. Kenneth Wheat, cc John Morgan and Jim Libbey, you said you had decided not to send the memo to Mr. Pigeon and you mentioned some developments.
Why didn't you send the letter to Mr. Pigeon?
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Deputy Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
To clarify, if I may, Mr. Chairman, on what I said in that memo, I said, this is your legal opinion, it's an interesting legal opinion; my view as to the accounting remains and will remain clear. And I restated my position as to the proper accounting for the matters dealt with.
Mr. Pigeon sent me that opinion late in February. Up until that point I'd received copies of the opinion from my staff, but I had not received a copy of the opinion directly from Mr. Pigeon. It was available to us in the meeting that we had in mid-February where we discussed it. Mr. Pigeon subsequently sent it to me at the end of February. I initially reacted quite negatively to him having done that. I felt the need to respond for the record. I drafted the response that Mr. Williams has referred to. I circulated it to selected members of my staff at that time as well as to Madam Cartwright for some comments. I spoke to Madam Cartwright about it. She reminded me, at that point, that the decision had been taken, the window for the supplementary estimates had been closed, I had lost the battle, and there would be no further point in me sending the memo at that point.
The other thing I would point out, Mr. Chairman, is at that point I had already resigned my position from the secretariat. I resigned my position from the secretariat on February 17, which is about a week before I'd formally received the opinion from Mr. Pigeon.
So in the end, I decided not to send it because I was advised not to and because I was concerned it would be viewed as sour grapes on my part.