Evidence of meeting #31 for Public Accounts in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was fees.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:45 p.m.
Conservative
Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB
On a quick point of order, Mr. Wrzesnewskyj was talking about the number of criminals removed versus the total number of removals, and I think some clarification needs to be made, because he suggested it was contained in the document here. It's not actually explicitly contained in the document; it's an extrapolation of his based on exhibit 7.5.
Just for anyone reading the blues or the evidence from our committee, who might see the numbers he's referring to, I think some clarification needs to be made. If you're going to extrapolate from those numbers, you have to understand that the percentages are based on rounding. We just need to clarify what those numbers are, if you want to extrapolate the number of criminals—
12:45 p.m.
Conservative
Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB
I'll get to the point quickly. I just want to have this clarification.
In 2005-06, based on rounding, it would range from 1,772 to 1,863; and in 2006-07, the number would range from 1,844 to 1,946, based on rounding. So anyone reading this can now actually have some context—
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
That was a point of clarification as opposed to a point of order.
Do you have anything to respond, Mr. Wrzesnewskyj?
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
I'm just glad that Mr. Lake has now done his homework.
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
On behalf of the committee, I want to take this opportunity to thank you, Mrs. Fraser, and all the members of your staff, for what I consider to be another excellent report.
Colleagues, the steering committee will be meeting on Monday, and we will be making a recommendation at the committee as to what particular chapters the committee will be having hearings on. Also, we will probably come back with a recommendation as to the draft agenda for the rest of this year at our meeting on Monday. We are also meeting for three hours on Tuesday, starting at 11 o'clock.
Before we go to Mr. Wrzesnewskyj's motion, I want to ask you, Mrs. Fraser, if you have any closing comments you want to make.
12:45 p.m.
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Chair, I'd just like to thank the committee for its interest in the report. We look forward to hearings with the committee and with departments and agencies on the issues we have raised. Thank you.
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
Thank you very much, Mrs. Fraser.
I'm going to go now to the motion that was tabled by Mr. Wrzesnewskyj. I'm not going to read it. It's there in front of you. It's redundant, but it's in order. The Auditor General has already given us assurance that she's going to table that with the committee, and I haven't heard that she's not, but it's not out of order.
Do you want to speak to that? I don't think we should spend a lot of time on it.
12:50 p.m.
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
No, I don't think that's necessary, because it's a short and succinct motion. I think it's self-explanatory, and I'm glad the Auditor General has indicated that she will provide the document, but I do think it's important that we formalize it just to make sure, and to make it clear, as a number of the members at the table made clear in their questioning, that we need to stand firm in preventing the PMO from circumventing the ability of the Auditor General and the public accounts committee to hold the executive branch of government to account, and to make it clear that we take quite seriously this attempt, perhaps, at undermining the independence of officers of Parliament.
12:50 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
Stick to the wording of the motion. You don't have to get into the debate.
Go ahead, Mr. Christopherson.
12:50 p.m.
NDP
David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Thank you, Chair.
I'd agree that we should codify it in a motion. The only thing I would suggest--and I would present it as a friendly amendment to the mover of the motion--is that it would read, after the end of the word “Parliament” in the motion, “and that the Auditor General provide the briefing note as requested at the committee meeting of April 29, 2008”. That captures all the discussion we had, the variables, because this would be one document, a briefing note that contained a few more of the issues. If we marry the two and move it, it's nailed down nice and clean.
12:50 p.m.
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
Absolutely. That is a friendly amendment, and it brings everything into context.
12:50 p.m.
Liberal
12:50 p.m.
The Clerk of the Committee Mr. Justin Vaive
From what I understand, the full motion would read:
I hereby request that the Auditor General, Sheila Fraser, table the draft communiqué from the Privy Council Office, which contains the unprecedented attempt by the executive branch of government to vet all communications of the Auditor General, an independent officer of Parliament, and that the briefing note as requested at the meeting of April 29, 2008, be provided as well.
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
Brian Fitzpatrick Conservative Prince Albert, SK
I'll be supporting the motion, but I'm curious about where we're going with it.
I want to quote from Alison Crawford, a CBC reporter on politics, and of course we wouldn't question the accuracy of a CBC reporter:
When I called her yesterday
--this is the Auditor General--
she said she has never been asked to submit any of her public relations materials to PCO, and says she has no fears that will ever happen.
For me, that killed the story, but it continues to pop up today in the House of Commons and it continues to pop up in this committee.
12:50 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
Again, I don't think we have to get into the....
Go ahead, Mr. Williams.
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
This is another situation of Mr. Wrzesnewskyj trying to turn over every stone to see what he's going to find there, and what he's found here is in public view. The Auditor General has already told us this is on the website. It seems rather strange that we would expect the Auditor General to deliver to us something that is on the website because Mr. Wrzesnewskyj just can't be bothered to go and find it for himself.
The second point, Mr. Chairman, is that this is a PCO document, so we should be asking the PCO--not the Auditor General, not the recipient of the document tabled. We should be asking the people who drafted the document to table it, and his language of “unprecedented attempt to vet all communications” I find quite offensive too, Mr. Chairman.
However, because it is on the website and because it is available for every Canadian to read, including Mr. Wrzesnewskyj, if the motion is not out of order, it should at least be withdrawn to show some respect for the system by Mr. Wrzesnewskyj.
I'll be voting against it.
12:50 p.m.
Bloc
Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I fully agree with the amended motion. It is important to formalize the commitment made by the Auditor General. I congratulated Ms. Fraser for holding firm in the face of the government plan. Public Works is already taking steps to control advertising. This is what the Auditor General told us: “ In the House, the government says that it does not apply to us but we want that to be confirmed in writing”. What we are doing with this motion is in full agreement with this process and is quite correct.
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
12:55 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
We'll go to Mr. Poilievre briefly and then to the mover. Then we'll put the question.
12:55 p.m.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON
Clearly there has been no attempt by anyone in the government to muzzle the Auditor General. Anybody who tried would be cruising for a bruising, as I think all of us know. So this motion is both useless and harmless. I will be supporting it for the latter reason.
