Public Accounts Committee on May 8th, 2008

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I'll be very quick. Did we not already deal with this motion before, that we have a briefing coming from the Auditor General on this issue that would include background material?

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

It really wasn't a motion, Mr. Christopherson. Actually, I believe it was you who put the question. The Auditor General herself agreed to provide the information. It didn't really require a motion; it was a question. She agreed to provide it. We don't have it yet. I assume we're going to get it.

Mr. Wrzesnewskyj has tabled a motion, which we will deal with later in the meeting, that deals with the same issue. The motion is in order, so it's—

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

But I thought I asked you the question whether there should be a motion, and you said no, it's taken care of and she'll bring it in. Let's not get caught up in procedure, but I thought we already did it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

The way I handled it was that you asked the question and she agreed to do it. Based upon that, there was no need of a motion.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Moving on to other issues, Mr. Poilievre was asking about illegal immigrants. My question is, can illegal immigrants get a social insurance number in this country?

[Sheila Fraser]

I really don't have the answer to that, Mr. Chair. The agency might be able to tell you that.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Okay. So they could be working and beavering away here in Canada and earning a good living, when they actually should be leaving the country because we don't want them here. Maybe they say that because they're paying their taxes, everything should be fine. But I think the first thing we need to know is whether these illegal immigrants can get that number. That would be one way to find them, because they wouldn't be able to work. I'm surprised the department wouldn't have that information.

On the issue Mr. Lee raised on the fees charged, we have programs in which they are supposed to recover the fees but not make a profit as such. I think it was a number of years ago that the Department of Agriculture was charging fees for the approval of animal feed, which of course CFIA would presumably regulate.

But if they had 10 applications in a year, they would charge 10% of the cost, and if they had 100 applications in a year, they would charge 1% of the cost. It seemed a rather strange way of conducting business per se; it was an arbitrary amount based on the number of applications from competitors as to the amount of fee they would have to pay. Is this a reasonable way to do business?

[Sheila Fraser]

Mr. Chair, we really didn't look at that, so I feel uncomfortable commenting on it, though we would certainly expect any department to have good systems in place to establish the fees and to have done some consultation in advance. In most cases, the fees established going forward are not done on an ad hoc kind of basis depending on the number of applications that come in.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

On the other issue Mr. Christopherson raised, of the dreadful situation for our children on first nations, and it is a dreadful situation and needs to be addressed, do you see any correlation between the problems there and the problems the children are being faced with—marital breakdown, family breakdown, and so on—with corruption on the reserves and the money not actually being spent as it should be spent?

I think of the Hobbema reserve just outside Edmonton, which has all kinds of oil and gas royalties. The people in senior positions are being paid extremely well, and yet we have third world living conditions right on the reserve, just outside Edmonton, and it's not for lack of cash.

[Sheila Fraser]

Mr. Chair, we really didn't get into that kind of analysis of the issues on first nations. It's quite clear in our report, though, that money is not the only issue in this. This is a very complicated and complex subject. It has a number of variables that affect the outcomes of these children.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Transport Canada--air transportation safety, which is a concern for all of us, especially MPs, since we travel so much--and the International Civil Aviation Organization that's headquartered in Montreal and sets the rules have now decided, you're telling us, that Transport Canada will not monitor the safety of...I presume it's private aircraft. We're not talking commercial aircraft, are we?

[Sheila Fraser]

Commercial.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

It is commercial? So they will no longer conduct the safety for commercial airlines, but they will monitor an airline maintaining its own safety regulations. Is that correct?

[Sheila Fraser]

They are promoting the use of the safety management systems and ensuring that the airlines and the maintenance companies themselves have proper systems in place to ensure safety.

The regulator's focus on oversight is on assessing these systems. The regulator can always carry out inspections or audits as it wishes, but it is a move to putting more emphasis on safety management systems.

This has happened in other areas. It has happened notably in rail and, I would even advance, in food safety. The whole HACCP program is the same kind of approach, and it is seen as being a better way of using resources to target the higher-risk areas.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Do you feel comfortable with this new process?

[Sheila Fraser]

We have not done an assessment of this new process. I believe we have an audit planned to do a work in agriculture on food safety and to see how successful the HACCP program is there. Obviously, it's just in transition here for air safety. I think it would be up to the department to explain how it believes that would be a more beneficial system.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

I'm a little concerned about air traffic safety. Is it a recommendation or a regulation by the International Civil Aviation Organization? Do you know?

[Sheila Fraser]

I believe it is a requirement.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

I certainly hope somebody believes this is adequate, Mr. Chairman. If a plane falls out of the sky and Transport Canada says it's not their problem, they don't monitor safety any more, I think the Canadian public is going to be rightly upset.

[Sheila Fraser]

I don't think we should jump to the conclusion that because they're changing the way they do the oversight, they don't regulate safety. They still do.

[John Williams]

I appreciate that.

[Sheila Fraser]

It's putting more emphasis, though, on the companies themselves to have the safety management systems in place.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

With regard to the atomic energy report, I was a little concerned with what you said, and this is for the regulator:

In addition, the regulator withdrew its service of providing the Corporation with a pre-licensing assessment, citing resource constraints, thus putting the Corporation at a competitive disadvantage...

--and so on.

Why would a regulator, regulating the nuclear industry here, have a shortage of resources?

[Sheila Fraser]

Mr. Chair, I think it was really the expertise and the technical resources to be able to assess nuclear reactors. There are not a lot of people in this country who can do that kind of work, according to what the regulator told us.