Public Accounts Committee on May 8th, 2008

[Jean-Yves Laforest, Bloc, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Perhaps, but one does not compensate for the other.

[Sheila Fraser]

It shows that there is a problem with equipment control and stock-taking. The possibility that they have equipment on the ground is rather high but if they are not sure or cannot find it, they might place new orders that should not be placed.

[Jean-Yves Laforest, Bloc, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

If one is able to determine that $7 million worth of equipment is missing, one should be able to tell what exactly is missing. That figure is based on the value of equipment that has been ordered. Would that include machinery, weapons, pharmaceuticals, major tech stuff? You said that they have had to cannibalize some equipment to carry out repairs. Is it this type of essential equipment that has disappeared or has not been delivered?

[Sheila Fraser]

I have no details with me, Mr. Chair. If there is a parliamentary hearing, you might want to put the question to the Department. However, I can tell you that medical supplies and ammunitions are kept in separate warehouses.

[Jean-Yves Laforest, Bloc, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

I would like to have more details on this matter. You were able to establish that $7 million worth of equipment could not be found. One should be able to check against the orders to see what was not delivered and what the value was. It is by adding everything that you get your $7 million.

[Sheila Fraser]

Mr. Chair, that is a question that should be put to the department.

[Jean-Yves Laforest, Bloc, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

I believe we should do so, Mr. Chair. It is very worrying. Some equipment has not reached the base but we seem to be unable to say if it is because it has disappeared on the base or has never been delivered to the base. Is it conceivable that there could be some type of black market? I believe we should really look at that seriously. Of course, we hope that is not the case but, to be sure, we need more detailed information.

I was asking earlier why there were no reports on that from commanding officers. I raise the question. I believe a more detailed report should be prepared in order for us to be able to assess the scope of the problem.

As to Chapter 4 and the whole issue of Child and Family Services for First Nations, you said that a significant agreement has been negotiated with the province of Alberta, which will lead to a 74% or 75% budgetary increase. You know what the living conditions are elsewhere where there is no agreement.

Considering the situation elsewhere, especially in Quebec, do you believe that, as soon as there is an agreement-- and we all hope it will be soon-- there will be the same significant budgetary increase? That would mean that those services are really underfunded at the present time, which is one of your findings by the way.

[Sheila Fraser]

I believe it would be reasonable to presume that in the other provinces the situation is the same as in Alberta. As we mentioned, the funding formula is outdated. It has not been changed significantly for over twenty years and for some very long periods did not even include any cost escalator. Furthermore, it does not take account of changes in provincial legislation and standards nor of the way services have evolved.

These days, we tend much more to offer preventive services in order to avoid taking children from their families but that is not taken into account in the funding formula. Under the existing formula, we give an amount to a program instead of really looking at the needs in order to set the funding level according to those needs.

It is imperative that the formula be reviewed. The government has let it be known that the approach used with Alberta is a model to follow and it seems rather optimistic about that. Of course, we will keep looking at progress made in this area and we hope that the Government will get good results, with performance indicators demonstrating real improvement.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you very much, Mr. Laforest.

Thank you, Ms. Fraser.

Mr. Poilievre, seven minutes.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Thank you for being with us.

I'd like to ask about chapter 7, “Detention and Removal of Individuals—Canada Border Services Agency”. You referred to roughly 41,000 deportees of whom we have lost track. Some of them may be in Canada and some might have left without exit records. I know we don't have good exit records for these people, and that is one of your criticisms of the system, but do you have any estimate of how many might have left?

[Sheila Fraser]

That is really up to the agency to do that kind of analysis and develop that work. At the time of our audit, they didn't have an estimate of that.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Okay.

That 41,000 includes some of the 36,000 in your 2003 audit. Is that not the case?

[Sheila Fraser]

The numbers are a little confusing, Mr. Chair. When we did the audit in 2003, there was no such database, so we did an estimation of the increase in the number. The 36,000 was the increase in the number of illegal immigrants in the country. We simply compared warrants that had been issued on known departures over six years. So it is difficult to know. We didn't actually have a base number.

The agency has actually done a lot of work to be able to put this database in place. It shows that there are 63,000, but we don't know what the starting number was. That number of 36,000 was probably high, because again, people may have left the country without having reported to the agency.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

So explain the difference between the 41,000 and the 60,000.

[Sheila Fraser]

The 63,000 is the total number of people who have warrants outstanding against them. The agency knows the whereabouts of 22,000.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

It knows the whereabouts but has not necessarily removed them.

[Sheila Fraser]

I'm sure the agency will tell you there are a number of reasons they sometimes can't remove people. They either can't get the documents to remove them, or it's not safe to remove them to their country, or various other reasons. That would be up to the agency to explain. But they do know the whereabouts of 22,000, and there are a further 41,000 they do not know the whereabouts of.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

With respect to the 41,000, when did that list of individuals accumulate? Was it in the last five years, or is a cumulative number going back a long time?

[Sheila Fraser]

It is potentially a cumulative number going back quite a while, though the agency did do a review of all the warrants and removed any warrants from the system that were quite old and outstanding. I believe they removed something like 10,000 warrants, which could be an indication that these people may have left. This is obviously over a long period of time.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

What costs do Canadian taxpayers incur because of the presence of 63,000 illegal immigrants in this country? Are there costs in terms of social welfare, policing? Are there costs that we, as taxpayers, are incurring, or is it really not of any cost to us at all?

[Sheila Fraser]

I have no information on that item.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Do you know if they would be eligible to receive any sort of health care insurance, for example, if they were to become sick?

[Sheila Fraser]

I'm afraid I don't have that information.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Okay.

You mentioned that the Canada Border Services Agency and Citizenship and Immigration Canada were successful in removing 1,900 criminals. That was over what time period?

[Sheila Fraser]

I believe it was over a year.