Evidence of meeting #32 for Public Accounts in the 39th Parliament, 2nd session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was contract.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Deputy Minister, Department of Finance
I don't know the exact period, but I believe it was February until the end of March.
Liberal
Charles Hubbard Liberal Miramichi, NB
It was a fairly expensive business, and they were pretty highly paid consultants, if you could call them that.
Liberal
Charles Hubbard Liberal Miramichi, NB
It was very expensive. If you saw them being very expensive, did you raise any observations to the minister's office that this was costing Canadian taxpayers a lot of money?
Deputy Minister, Department of Finance
Again, the contract was amended, as it can be amended, later in the game, and we executed the contract. I did not, as I said earlier to your colleagues, raise an alarm on this issue and the cost of it.
Liberal
Charles Hubbard Liberal Miramichi, NB
I found rather unusual, in some of the other contracts that were prepared or submitted or at least that came out in terms of our access to information, that not only was there a contract price of around $20,000, but then money was added on for other expenses. Is that a normal procedure--adding on money for so many flights, so many taxis, so many meals, so many hotel bills? Is that a normal way that a contract should be--
Deputy Minister, Department of Finance
A contract should include expenses, and that's all provided for, whatever's provided for in the contract. It's not unusual.
Liberal
Charles Hubbard Liberal Miramichi, NB
So there might have been problems with other contracts if the expenses got higher than what--
Deputy Minister, Department of Finance
The expenses should be included in the contract.
Liberal
Charles Hubbard Liberal Miramichi, NB
So we have no assurance, really, that it was under the $25,000 limit until--
Deputy Minister, Department of Finance
Yes, it should be all-inclusive of the costs to the government under that contract. The all-inclusive price should be included up front.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
Thank you, Mr. Hubbard, Mr. Wright.
Mr. Poilievre, you have seven minutes.
Mr. Poilievre will be the last examiner.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON
I think the only thing that matters to Canadian taxpayers is what they got for the money they paid. There's an interesting academic debate going on about the administrative practices of governments, but what matters is what the taxpayer got for the money we paid.
For Mr. MacPhie's company and the employees he used to carry out the $122,000 contract, how many hours of work were booked?
Deputy Minister, Department of Finance
Again, the department didn't manage that contract. I think there was an estimate in the final contract that is a matter of record, and I can get you that estimate. I would say, given the daily rate that was quoted, that he worked far more hours than were covered by that daily rate that was quoted. Similarly, for—
Liberal
Deputy Minister, Department of Finance
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
In both the case of the contract with Hugh MacPhie, but particularly of that with Sara Mintz—this was a very big budget, the 2007 budget, and it was an extensive period of time—they registered for more hours in the contracts than they actually charged the government for.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON
I understand. I've heard reports of 800 hours of work for the three employees at MacPhie and Company. Does that sound about right?
Deputy Minister, Department of Finance
It does. I know they worked very hard. It's a very intense period at the Department of Finance. I believe they're here, and they can.... I have the contracts here, but it is something to that effect, and in fact it was released under access to information.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON
Were they by and large full-time on this project during the contract period, from what you could observe?
Deputy Minister, Department of Finance
They were full-time, night and day, seven days a week, for the whole period of the budget, like everybody else in the department.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON
So 800 hours makes sense, because over a two-month or 60-day period, that works out to about 13 hours a day for all three employees combined.
Deputy Minister, Department of Finance
That's budget time; people work very hard. I think that's a matter of record.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON
So it would be reasonable to expect that this is about 800 hours of work.
I understand that in addition to the speech, they were involved in writing and/or editing about 400 pages of budget documentation. Is that about right?
Deputy Minister, Department of Finance
Yes.
By the way, the name of the associate of Hugh MacPhie was Paul Tambeau. The two of them, in addition to whatever they were doing on speeches or political coordination in meetings with other ministers, worked on all the editorial comments that might have been made by the minister, his office, or by them with the department on the entire budget document. They helped edit the entire budget document as well as the political strategic advice going into it and other issues.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON
Okay, so they edited the entire budget document. How many pages are in that document?