Public Accounts Committee on June 5th, 2008

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

And I'm not suggesting that either; I'm just quoting the Auditor General. My question is, how is it that in the planning we let that happen?

[Louis Ranger]

Mr. Preuss may want to comment on that.

[Merlin Preuss]

In the planning for SMS, did we let that happen? Is that your question?

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Well, it was in the planning somewhere.

[Merlin Preuss]

With respect to the SMS implementation, it's a different regulatory regime. The observations are made against risk assessments using the compliance-based system that's there.

Are there regional differences? I would expect there should be, because the environments are different. It's different flying in the Rockies, as it is different flying in the fog-laden parts of eastern Canada, as it is different flying out of Regina.

One would expect regional approaches to take into consideration those facts. As to whether or not we have problems with that process, I would suggest not, because the accident statistics indicate so.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

With all due respect, if the department that is in charge of aviation safety knows there may be different circumstances in different areas, then why would those not be included in our criteria, rather than leave a situation wherein—and I'm rereading the sentence here from the Auditor General—“Managers do not always analyze all of the risk indicators...and may use other indicators that are not listed”.

If you're telling me that we know that flight conditions differ in certain areas, because of height and whatever, shouldn't we be listing those? Shouldn't we have a consistency? How do we know which indicators the managers may be using if they're not listed anywhere?

It seems to me there's a

shortcoming, Mr. Ranger, in the implementation process. I am pleased to see that you noticed this shortcoming and I look forward to seeing how you plan to address it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you.

[Louis Ranger]

I accept these comments, but I do not believe we said additional indicators were inappropriate. We are dealing with very well trained inspectors who have a great deal of experience. Some were recruited from within the private sector. If additional observations come up, above and beyond the criteria, we accept them, but that does not mean the criteria were ineffective, contradictory and all aimed at ensuring greater security.

[Marc Grégoire]

Our inspectors are well paid. They are professionals who have a great deal of experience in the industry. They do have some leeway.

[Mauril Bélanger, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

The danger here is that similar circumstances may lead to different conclusions. That would be dangerous.

[Marc Grégoire]

It is not an automatic conclusion, but a possibility. This is the reason why we accepted the recommendation. We will be producing a report which will change the inspection policy.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

We're going to move on.

Mr. Fitzpatrick, you have seven minutes.

[Brian Fitzpatrick, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

I'm sure Mr. Julian didn't intend this, but I want to try to clarify something. There was some sort of suggestion that the aircraft incident that occurred—I believe in Alberta, the Williams incident—was somehow connected to the SMS system, and the implication is that there are some inherent defects in this system and that these might have been the effective cause of this accident.

Just to clear the air on this thing, do you see any connection between the SMS implementation and that particular accident?

[Marc Grégoire]

Absolutely not.

[Merlin Preuss]

It's a different system. In fact, one of the things we should point out is that SMS has now become a buzzword, like Kleenex. And guess what? There are different brands of Kleenex. The brand that's in Biggar and being used in the CBAA is not nearly as demanding as—

[Brian Fitzpatrick, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

Thank you very much. I accept your point, too, that part of life is risk and that you can't have a zero position; accidents will happen. I walked across the bridge this morning, and there was a good four- or five-car pileup across the Alexandra Bridge. Things happen; I don't think anybody plans them. I'm not going to blame the SMS system for that accident, but maybe some people would.

Just for the sake of clarification, if we're talking to the general public, what do we mean when we're talking about this SMS system? What is it? Could somebody, in a few words, describe basically what it is?

[Louis Ranger]

In a very simplistic way, instead of our kicking every tire, we want to make sure that the airlines themselves kick their own tires. And we will make sure they do. Every company has an accountable executive. It comes from the top—making sure that everybody in the organization is sensitized. It's not just Joe Blow's responsibility; everybody is responsible for safety.

[Brian Fitzpatrick, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

I assume it's an international standard that is being put in place with the industry?

[Louis Ranger]

That is correct.

[Brian Fitzpatrick, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

I'm sure some of my old-style socialist friends, sovereigntists and nationalists, would see this as some sort of conspiracy by the globalization people to undermine safety and create unnecessary risks.

What's your view on this system? Is it a good thing to have a standardized international safety management system or not?

[Louis Ranger]

In my introductory remarks I talked about the limitations of the traditional method. If we're kicking the tires, as soon as we turn our back, human nature being what it is, nothing will happen once the inspector is gone. If you make the management responsible for it, they'll make sure that things are done properly. The inspectors cannot be there at all times, so we need to make them more accountable. We're going to check their books. We're going to do sporadic inspections ourselves. It's not a game here—they have to be accountable themselves.

[Brian Fitzpatrick, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

If management wants to take that approach, there's another check on things. It's called lawsuits and tort law. If you want to create deliberate, unreasonable risks in the marketplace, it can be very expensive for companies. That's another factor.

[Louis Ranger]

We amended the Aeronautics Act a couple of years ago, and we can now impose fines that are much steeper than....

Sorry, I'm informed that it's not yet amended. We're trying to do that now. In my mind, it's been there for so long that I feel it's already been done.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

I'd like to go back to a statement you made right at the end of the last round of questioning. You were talking about different inspectors coming up with possibly different conclusions. Mr. Grégoire, I believe right at the end you said you were taking action to modify the inspection model to reduce the risk of variation by inspectors.

Did I catch that correctly? Is that what you said?

[Marc Grégoire]

Yes.

We've always had differences between regions. Whenever we found them, we addressed them. This is not new to SMS. We've had differences of interpretation before, and that's quality assurance. We will put in more quality assurance from headquarters, and we will modify the inspection policy.