Public Accounts Committee on Feb. 24th, 2014

[Carolina Giliberti]

As of this morning, 74% of all the records of employment that we received were in fact done online. We have just launched ROE web online, which is a registration system that allows employees to register online so that they do not need to come in to Employment and Social Development Canada. The goal, of course, is to have 100%. There are barriers, though, to reaching this goal.

One of the issues we're having is software compatibility. Some companies do not have the software that allows ROE registration, so we are working with that. It's the payroll service providers actually who have a paper ROE process, and it's a payer online ROE business model that is in fact paper, not online. Also, some payroll systems are not compatible with our ROE web, and it's a very high investment for those companies to adapt their ROE to our ROE web.

What we also find is that there are some who just do not want to enrol online. One of the solutions could be something that makes it a mandatory process for them to apply online, yes.

[Bryan Hayes, Conservative, Sault Ste. Marie, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

Thank you. You're the first one under time. Well done.

Mr. Simms, you have the floor, sir.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

Thank you to all our guests. I won't thank you individually. It would take me five minutes, so now I'm done.

Mr. Ferguson, I want to draw your attention to paragraph 2.36 in the report. If I can get this straight, in 1999 we had a government online initiative, and the whole point was to make sure that the client was sufficiently served here across all government departments, and up until 2005, things were going along smoothly. I'll quote from the report:

Since the last report in 2006 there has been no requirement for departments to report about the number of key services offered online, the level of interaction possible, the efficiencies achieved, and the take-up by Canadians and businesses.

Would I be correct in saying that the envisioned online interaction, the engagement of the public to the extent where people are using it, is not followed up as to whether this is a good service or not? In other words, is it because they're not road-testing this stuff before they put it out there, or they don't do enough follow-up based on levels of interaction, whether or not they're user friendly or the disjointed way they're putting it out there?

[Michael Ferguson]

What we are pointing out is that after 2005 there wasn't a single strategy that existed. Furthermore, paragraph 2.37 talks about how there hadn't been that overall assessment of client needs and satisfaction. Since 2005 the government hasn't been operating with full information, which would be the type of information that would be used to guide that type of strategy.

That's the issue we're bringing forward.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

What is the type of information you're talking about then? Is it getting people in a room to do some kind of study that asks what it is about it they don't like, to get their feedback? I'm not talking about just the unsolicited feedback that you get from people who are entirely ticked off at their whole experience and they write to say they're not very happy. Do they go to the general public with questionnaires or something like that? Is that what's missing here?

[Michael Ferguson]

Again, what we are referring to is there was no government-wide or overall assessment of the client needs and satisfactions. Individual departments and organizations may have been doing, and were doing, their own satisfaction type of surveys, but there was no overall assessment of that type of information.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

I see what you're saying. You give an example in paragraph 2.30, and I think it is a good illustration, with respect to sharing activities across government departments and requiring current address information. You give the example that if you're enrolled with EI, and then graduate to the CPP program—and, Madame, you can weigh in if you wish—you had to do two different things to inform people of what your address is, but they're under one department, the same one.

We encounter this in my constituency office quite a bit. It seems there are silos operating in each individual area. Are you saying the tie that binds them with information is just absent?

[Michael Ferguson]

I think it's really a different issue from the first one we were talking about, but in this particular issue, yes, we are pointing out the fact that in some cases even programs within the same department people were having to enrol or make a change of address within each separate program rather than just within just that department. So, yes, some of these programs could be described as siloed.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

Was there any attempt, say from 2006 to 2012, to bring all this together? It seems to me there was an attempt to get together with the provinces.

[Michael Ferguson]

I don't want to give the impression that all of these things are necessarily easy. These can be complex. In terms of what happened specifically, like for these types of programs, EI and CPP, I can't speak to specifically, but maybe the department can respond to that.

Again, with things like CRA, we do say there were improvements made to their services since 2005, so there were individual activities occurring.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

Actually, that's a valid point, and I want to go to that. In paragraph 2.41 you say, “We found that only the CRA has developed integrated plans and strategies for delivering services”. One of my colleagues touched on it earlier, but it seems there's sharing of best practices—

[The Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

Mr. Simms, please. Sorry.

[Scott Simms, Liberal, Bonavista—Gander—Grand Falls—Windsor, NL]

I didn't know.

[The Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

That's okay.

Mr. Aspin, you have the floor now.

[Jay Aspin, Conservative, Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON]

Welcome, Mr. Ferguson, and indeed all our guests. We certainly have a lot of experience in the online business among all the departments.

I'm going to focus, as one of my colleagues has already done, on the tax services aspect because I get a lot of calls in my particular constituency about that.

My question is directed to Mr. Bennett.

From your brief, Mr. Bennett, obviously there's been a substantial increase in the number of enrolments, which is good. You point out in your brief as well that there's a concerted effort to promote online filing with success, with 76% of individual tax returns, 64% of GST/HST, and about 70% of corporate income tax. That's good participation at roughly three out of every four.

You've also pointed out, as my colleague, Mr. Woodworth, pointed out before, CRA has made over 40 improvements to online services between 2009 and 2012.

Maybe I could give you a chance to complete your outline of some of those enhancements that have been brought forth in those three years.

[Dave Bennett]

Certainly. As I mentioned earlier, they do cross the various lines of individual businesses and those representatives who prepare tax returns for this. Some of the specific enhancements include that you can now access your T4s and your T4As online. You can find all those there. You can look up your tax-free savings amount, how much you can contribute this year. I previously mentioned that when viewing your return, you can look back 10 years. Submitting documents is a new feature that we have introduced and are rolling out in all the business lines. The simple description of that is that each year when we receive returns, some are selected for a follow-up. We may ask for additional information or a receipt that wasn't included at the time of filing. We now have a facility for taxpayers and representatives to submit those digitally through a secure portal. What was previously always done on paper, we are now enabling that in a digital fashion.

New payment features have been added where you can pay directly via your Interac account. There have been instalment payment calculators for those businesses that need to calculate how much their instalment should be. There is a facility online. Message centres and inquiry services have been added in the My Business Account portal. Currently, although it's not in this report, we are also looking at facilities for the delivery of your documents in an electronic fashion.

Those are examples of the nature of the enhancements we have made. We classify them into two categories. There is what we view as view and do. In some instances, you can look at things that you've submitted or look at the outcome of your returns, assessments. In other cases, you can actually manipulate your account, you can move money around, or you can request a reassessment if you happen to find more charitable receipts that you had forgotten at the time you filed your return.

That's just a sampling of that for you.

[Jay Aspin, Conservative, Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON]

Okay, thank you.

[The Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

You have one minute.

[Jay Aspin, Conservative, Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON]

Maybe I can get into a little bit of VAC, the veterans.

I have a question for Ms. Bastien. What improvements have you made since 2005 when you launched My VAC Account?

[Rick Christopher, Director, Service Delivery, Department of Veterans Affairs]

I can answer that.

Since 2005 when we launched, we've implemented a number of changes, improvements. In no particular order, you can verify the status of your veterans independence program application. You can now send us a secure message. If you want to communicate securely with the department you can send us an electronic message. You can—

[The Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

I'm sorry, Mr. Christopher, I have to end your time. Thank you.

Over now to Mr. Allen, again. You have the floor, sir.

[Malcolm Allen, NDP, Welland, ON]

He's quite a taskmaster, this man from Hamilton.

Mr. Ferguson, on page 20 of your report, at exhibit 2.3, you have a table. I would encourage the folks from Veterans Affairs Canada to follow along, because the question will go to them subsequent to this.

You use the example of a Canadian veteran, just retired, who receives Canada pension plan benefits. During his military service, he was injured and he's eligible for disability benefits, which would come out of somewhere else. The veteran also wants to interact with the Government of Canada online to manage his benefits and also his taxes—that's Mr. Bennett at CRA—so he decides to access Service Canada's website.

Sir, you have a lovely chart here.

I freely admit to you, Mr. Bennett, that I once tried to go on your website, and as soon as you said, “I'll get back to you in five or ten days”, I said, “Thank you very much, but no thank you.” I didn't bother. The online password just takes far too long, in my view, to send through the mail to me after all the checks that you actually want from me, which clearly probably only I would know and that you actually asked for. There's good security, by the way, and I don't have a problem with that. The issue is that I'm not interested in your sending it to me in the mail—that's me personally—so I never did open it. It probably died on the Internet somewhere.

Mr. Ferguson, you've laid this thing out. Clearly, as we follow it through—and for the cameras, for the folks at home who don't have this in front of them—you literally ended up doing the same thing over and over again, except there are minor pieces. For instance, you sign in, or you use your GCKey, or you go to proof of identity, employment insurance, you need the access code, which gives you a four-digit number.

We can see that with My VAC it's actually quicker, because there is a certain number and I get in. I have to wait for you to send me something to get in and I have to wait for Mr. Bennett to send me something to get in, whereas My VAC lets me in as long as I have the proper security code. It's wonderful, actually. I think the other two groups ought to look at what you do, since you're giving benefits as well.

Actually, I agree with Mr. Woodsworth. No offence, Mr. Bennett, but more often than not, you usually are taking more than you are giving back, but that's your job and that's okay.

I'm getting benefits from EI, CPP, or OAS, etc. How come I can get benefits as a veteran from them, but I can't get them from you? That's an open question. I'll leave that for you folks to take back and think about while I wait 10 days for my thing that I'm never going to wait for, because I'm not going to ever end the thing....

Thank you, Mr. Ferguson, for the walk-through of what should be easy in life: to use a computer. I'm not technically in the dark. Yes, I'm a middle-age guy who has come to computers late in life, but I'm not a person who can't manage it. To be perfectly frank, if I were a vet and you were asking me to dance the dance, I'd be looking to call 1-800....

This is where I'm going back to you, Ms. Giliberti, about your 1-800 number. Does your system still function the way it does—and hopefully not for vets—for EI? If I get online and have a question, I go in the queue and wait. When it times out, the electronic voice says goodbye and hangs up. It never gives me a number that says I've contacted you. It never takes my number and says, like Sears Canada used to do, “If you wish to remain in the queue but not on the line, we'll call you.”

How is it the functionality of a department as large as yours is such that your electronic voice tells me goodbye? Then, when I say that I've called you, everyone says they don't have a record. Well, of course you don't. You hung up on me. If you hang up on me enough times, how many times am I going to call you back?

I look at both of you, Ms. Bastien and Ms. Giliberti. How do we integrate a service for folks at a moment when they're being asked to use electronic services and make it functional in a humane way so that it will function for them? I throw it open to either one of you. You can decide which one wants to answer it first.

[Carolina Giliberti]

I can certainly speak for Employment and Social Development Canada, in that we're doing two things right now with respect to our telephony system. One of the most important things we're doing is we're developing a new telephony system with Shared Services Canada, whereby we will have an upgraded telephony system that will allow us to do those very things and to have better functionality, much like you would on any modern call answering system. That's number one.

The second thing we're doing is we are modifying our service delivery online so that we can actually get you first resolution. First-contact resolution would allow us to do end-to-end resolution with respect to your—

[The Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

I apologize, but I do have to interrupt.

That would conclude Mr. Allen's time, and now we go to Mr. Falk.