Evidence of meeting #40 for Public Accounts in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was access.
A video is available from Parliament.
NDP
Dennis Bevington NDP Northwest Territories, NT
Could you look back at the food mail program and see what the administrative cost for that was?
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
It's not something that we did as part of the audit, so we don't have that data.
NDP
The Chair NDP David Christopherson
Sorry, time has expired.
Last in our regular rotation is Mr. Woodworth. Please go ahead, sir.
Conservative
Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I will pick up on the very last point we were speaking to regarding the specific detailed numbers behind exhibit 3.2. Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding was that the figures on the right under the heading “Redress” were the dark blue on the chart, that is, appeal or review. Am I correctly understanding that?
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
It is my understanding that is correct.
Conservative
Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON
I think I also understood that your auditor, Mr. Berthelette, may have verified at least two out of the percentage figures that I put on this chart. May I just ask which one of them he verified for me, or was it two of them?
Jerome Berthelette Assistant Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
It was the 90% and the 97% under percentage of VAC.
Conservative
Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON
Very good. Those are saying in fact that 90% of the non-appealed Veterans Affairs eligibility decisions on disability claims were made in less than one year. Is that correct?
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
That's correct.
Conservative
Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON
In fact in that 90% of that category of favourable eligibility decisions, 97% were made in less than two years. Is that correct?
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Yes, 97% would have been within two years.
Conservative
Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON
Thank you.
Mr. Chair, I will be asking that the document I prepared with that background verification and the figures, apart from the percentage calculations that originated with the Auditor General, be tabled. If there's an argument about it, though, I'd like to ask one or two other questions first before I proceed to that.
I want to go back to the question of whether or not the mental health support services under the rehabilitation program are any different from the mental health support services under the disability program. I'm looking at the website page for the description of rehabilitation services and I see it includes, “Medical rehabilitation. Health care experts work with veterans to stabilize and restore health to the fullest extent possible.” There is also psychosocial rehabilitation, and there's a slightly lengthier description of that.
I don't know if you can tell me today, and I don't necessarily need it today, but I would be grateful for your statement as to how you found the mental health services under rehabilitation to be any different from the mental health services under the disability program.
It may be that a lot of the services in being able to access a psychologist or that sort of thing are the same, but it would have been the duration maybe—
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Oh, fine.
Conservative
Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON
—that's different as well. That I understand, but I'm just concerned that the same services are available at an early stage.
While I'm on that subject, I also have a note that Veterans Affairs Canada operates an assistance service, a free telephone counselling and referral service available 24/7, delivered through a nationwide team of mental health professionals.
Did you audit the mental health services that are provided through that program?
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
In paragraph 3.19, we identified the various types of services that are available through Veterans Affairs, whether it be the operational stress injury clinics, their case management services, or the Veterans Affairs Canada assistance service, which I think is probably the one that you are referring to. In the audit we did identify that these types of things are available to veterans as well.
Conservative
Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON
Right, but isn't that really a gateway service? Doesn't the 24/7 phone call for counselling and referral delivered through a nationwide team of mental health professionals give access to mental health support services for veterans?
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Again, I think the issue we were raising was access through the disability benefits program. Again, we've said that under the rehabilitation program access is timely and we've said here that other things are available, such as the phone line, but being able to get those important services through the disability benefits program is where we have the concern.
Conservative
Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON
Understood, but I just want to say that when we look at the global picture, the timeliness of receiving these services is not strictly limited to the disability program, which as you point out is for longer duration services.
Beyond that, I have one last question, if I can squeeze it in.
How did you come up with the figure of 16 weeks in veterans' perception from when they first get interested to when they file their application?
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
We did a detailed analysis of the database that Veterans Affairs had that identified when the veteran first contacted Veterans Affairs. We were also able to find the date that the application was accepted as complete and then the date of the final decision. The data existed within the Veterans Affairs database.
NDP
The Chair NDP David Christopherson
Sorry, Mr. Woodworth. I let you squeeze in one last one anyway. I was trying to be as generous as I could.
In the interest of trying to avoid any future concerns, for the time being nobody challenged the document. I didn't see any reason to. But as far as I'm concerned, it was tabled for purposes of questioning only at this point. Anything further than that, any further status that you wish awarded, I would suggest we deal with at the time of report writing. I'll listen to arguments at that time and make a ruling then. Right now I don't know your motives, but I'm making it clear that by accepting it here today it has no more status right now than as a document to assist in referencing questions. Again, anything beyond that, Mr. Woodworth, I would entertain arguments at the time, and make a ruling at that time.
Conservative
Stephen Woodworth Conservative Kitchener Centre, ON
I have one brief comment in response, if I may. What I shall do is ask the Auditor General to submit to the clerk the same information that was submitted to me, and perhaps in that fashion it will be more acceptable to the committee.
The only reason I submitted it in this form was to give the benefit to my francophone colleagues of having it translated, which I did. I will ask the Auditor General to submit it also.
NDP
The Chair NDP David Christopherson
I considered your actions to be very respectful of the committee and meant to be of assistance to the committee, but what I didn't want to do was to inadvertently allow some kind of a precedent setting around the document. What I'm hearing from you is that the information is what you want conveyed and brought here as if we'd asked the question and they had forwarded it afterwards. My concern is to head off an area that we've never been into, which is that members bring their own documents and try, as they've laid them out, to have them incorporated into a report, which takes us down a whole other road. I appreciate your clarification.
We'll ask the Auditor General if he can be of assistance in that regard and provide the information as if you were asking the original questions. That way it will come to us in the usual format.
I look to other members to see if that's acceptable.
Mr. Allen.
NDP
Malcolm Allen NDP Welland, ON
Chair, I appreciate Mr. Woodworth's clarifying his position around asking the Auditor General, which I greatly appreciate, and I would accept that undertaking. I do believe that Mr. Woodworth actually brought the documentation in good faith, as a helping document. The difficulty I raised at the beginning was that it didn't tell me where it was from until he decided to disclose that.
In the future, if someone is bringing a helping document, he or she may want to tell us where it came from and reference the fact that it came from them.
I realize you may have said that verbally, but it's helpful if we put that on it.
NDP
Malcolm Allen NDP Welland, ON
No, I'm not going to go too far, because I've accepted the fact—and I will support Mr. Woodworth if he's asking the Auditor General to provide this document from him to the chair, which then makes it part of the testimony. I'm more than happy to accept that.