Public Accounts Committee on Feb. 25th, 2015

[Michel D. Doiron]

In this case, we have reviewed to make sure that type of weakness does not occur, but you are right, sir, there are two areas. Usually it's not the illness. The doctors tell us what the illness is. That's pretty clear. The big challenge we have is service relationship. We have to remember in Veterans Affairs legislation, to open that door, it has to be linked to your service. There are exceptions, but typically it is that service.

Often, for a veteran to prove this, especially in an area where files were not really completed, or people did not report injuries.... We know that our older veterans did not necessarily report that they injured a knee or whatever it may be. The files are incomplete. We have to follow legislation that stipulates, as you know. If there was no documentation and the individual cannot provide documentation at one of the levels of appeal, then you go into a long period of time.

At some point, documentation was provided, but seven years...I agree, it's a long time.

[The Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

Thank you. Your time has expired.

Mr. Aspin, you have the floor, sir.

[Jay Aspin, Conservative, Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON]

Thanks, Chair.

I welcome our guests for this important testimony.

I think it's important that the public is aware of this, so my first question is to you, Mr. Berthelette. Just to confirm, sir, if a veteran is in need right now, right now at this instant, is there help available to them? Could you also confirm what your audit team found for emergency or critical cases? I think it's important that veterans and their families who are listening know this.

[Jerome Berthelette]

Mr. Chair, I think the answer to that question is a little difficult, because we didn't audit as widely. As the question implies, the answer would be that an individual who is having a mental health crisis does have access through the provincial system to some crisis care. It is available in the provincial system. That doesn't necessarily mean they know where it is or how to access it.

When we talk about the two programs we looked at, there is an application process that the serving members or the veterans must go through in order to be eligible to access mental health services. Are they able to access services right away? In some cases, I think it's fair to say not directly through the program—I'll ask Mr. Doiron to respond specifically to that—but there are other programs we have mentioned here, like the 24-7 program, for instance, which provides support that is available right away.

So there are supports out there that are available right away. That's true.

[Jay Aspin, Conservative, Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON]

So can you confirm that? Because there is a perception out in the public that some of these veterans.... In fact, my good friend Mr. Valeriote mentioned that there are a lot of “wills” and not a lot of “nows”. Can you confirm that there are nows and that these people are taken care of?

[Jerome Berthelette]

I think I confirmed that there are some nows available for mental health services to veterans, but I can't say that they are in fact taking care of it. I don't think.... I can't speak for Veterans Affairs, but from what we saw, I don't think Veterans Affairs can state that they are actually receiving services.

[Jay Aspin, Conservative, Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON]

You can't confirm that they're taken care of right now.

[Jerome Berthelette]

Right now.

[Jay Aspin, Conservative, Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON]

In your estimation, there's a lot of people being cast off?

[Jerome Berthelette]

I think that in this area, as we say, there are people who may not understand where services are available to them, what services are available to them, and how to access some emergency services. I can say that.

[Jay Aspin, Conservative, Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON]

I'd like to pose that very question to Mr. Doiron.

[Michel D. Doiron]

I'm going to be a little bit more categoric. I think the services are there.

We link disability benefits to mental health services, and I think we have to be very careful when we do that. The disability benefit—the 16 weeks, the 32 weeks—for sure, it opens the doors to many services for a veteran.

That said, there is a lot of other support available to a veteran. We have the crisis line, which will give them 20 sessions with a psychologist. You can call 24-7. You will get to meet a psychologist. There are peer networks, such as OSISS, where a veteran can talk to a fellow veteran who has been where this individual man or woman has been. The services are there.

First and foremost, we can't forget that we have national health care in Canada. Any one of these...and actually, we're not a 24-7 operation at Veterans Affairs, so when we have a crisis at two in the morning, my counsellors—I do have people on phones—call 911. Any veteran that is in a crisis, the national safety net is there to take care of them.

Now, if you talk purely about Veterans Affairs programming, the one about the 20 sessions is with us. OSISS is with us. We use the services of our colleagues in the CAF for veterans. They are available to help veterans also. They have full-time psychologists, psychiatrists, and things like that.

The review looked at the disability process. It is 16 weeks, and 32 weeks from the view of veteran. We agreed with the OAG on that. I think we have to be careful, because there are services—not that everybody would take those services, as there's still the stigma. I'm not going to...but the reality is that there are services available to a veteran.

[The Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

Sorry, Mr. Aspin. Your time has expired, sir.

We're moving back over to Mr. Valeriote.

You have the floor, sir.

[Frank Valeriote, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

I'd just like to know.... We got two contradictory answers to Mr. Aspin's question. Mr. Berthelette said there are services that aren't there, and Mr. Doiron says there are services that are there, but I'm not going to pursue that line of questioning.

You'll recall the earlier question I asked about the faults with the Veterans Review and Appeal Board and how long it takes, etc. I would have thought that you would have, in addition, sought the opinion of veterans themselves. I know you're waiting for this question, Mr. Doiron, because you know there was a survey done in 2010, and we had a drop in satisfaction from 80% to 68% for those who served in Afghanistan.

Now we're not even seeking the opinions of veterans. In fact, not only are we not seeking them, but there are a lot of stakeholder veterans who want to express their opinion and are no longer considered stakeholders by this minister, because, in my opinion, respectfully, sir, he doesn't want to hear from everybody. He typically prefers to hear from people who—

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

On a point of order—

[The Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

Sorry, Mr. Valeriote, hang on. We have a point of order. Let me deal with it.

Stop the clock.

Mr. Albas.

[Dan Albas, Conservative, Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC]

I don't like doing this to any guest, but really, Mr. Chair, the point of order I'm raising is on relevancy. We have the Auditor General's staff here today to speak specifically to the content of this report and officials who are here today to speak specifically to the content of this report. While I know that Mr. Valeriote has many opinions on veterans, we are studying this report, and hopefully he would be so good as to come back to the actual issue, not personalities. This is about veterans. This is about their concerns specific to this report.

[Frank Valeriote, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

With respect, Chair—

[The Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

Yes, go ahead.

[Frank Valeriote, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

—I think it's quite relevant as to what appears to be a prevalent attitude of the government in not really wishing to consider the opinions of the veterans themselves. I get veterans who come to me. I can't tell you how many. I know that Mr. Stoffer typically gets veterans coming to him by the hundreds complaining that they're not being heard, that their concerns are not being heard.

Having said that, I'm happy to withdraw that particular comment, continue on, and return to what you might consider relevant, Mr. Albas.

[The Chair, NDP, David Christopherson]

There we go. I love it when problems solve themselves, which this one just did.

Please continue.

[Frank Valeriote, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

What I do consider relevant is that the survey would be an appropriate tool with which to obtain opinions from veterans. I'm wondering when and if that survey will be introduced, and if not, why not?

[Michel D. Doiron]

There are no plans that I am aware of at the moment to reintroduce the survey, so I can't answer for the future. It's something we'll have to discuss.

However, we are using a different tool to assess our services. It's the Life After Service Survey, which is more scientific and more evidence-based. It's public. It's on the website. It does identify and has identified some of the issues. We now know who is struggling more with transition: the combat arms, and junior NCOs, and things like that. We can start with this evidence and improve our programs.

I talk to stakeholders on a regular basis, sir. Today I talked to one group. But when it comes to that actual survey, there are no plans that I'm aware of.

[Frank Valeriote, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Mr. Berthelette, I'm wondering, as you are from the Auditor General's office, whether you would think that this kind of survey of which I speak, which used to be sought by Veterans Affairs but has not been recently sought, would assist Veterans Affairs in better addressing the culture or the difficulties they're having in processing applications, particularly the difficulties that the veterans themselves are having in processing them.

[Jerome Berthelette]

Surveys are a valid tool that can be used by departments to measure effectiveness and to gather other forms of information.