Public Accounts Committee on June 5th, 2018

[Ian Shugart]

Part of that specialized training on mistreatment is to give the consular officers the background, the information, the signs, the clues, that there may be mistreatment going on. It's very specialized, as you know.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

The very fact of being detained quite often has very severe consequences for people if they're doing business, or for people who have children—

[Ian Shugart]

Yes.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Saanich—Sooke, BC]

—and have child care arrangements that get disrupted. There are some very severe consequences, even if it's not from direct mistreatment while in custody.

I was very happy to hear you mention the different circumstances of people, because obviously some Canadians are more vulnerable when they're travelling. I belong to that category, as a gay man. There are 74 countries where I don't visit. I try very carefully not to visit there, but not all members of my community are that—I would call it—sensible or aware of their situations.

Do you know, if a person is a member of the LGBT community, that different standards would be applied when they've been arrested or detained?

[Heather Jeffrey]

We have specialized travel advice for different types of communities that might find themselves in a particular context where they should be alert for potential threats to their safety or well-being. That can include young people travelling in some places, elderly, LGBTQ. There are jurisdictions where the rule of law as we have in Canada and respect for human rights are not observed.

We have that advice. One of the recommendations of the audit is that we look for ways to provide that to people in a more targeted way. It needs to be part of the documentation in our case system where particular vulnerabilities or threats arise, and what that means for the level of service and monitoring that those individuals should continue to receive. It needs to be a much more tailored response, but in a documented way.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you very much. The time is up.

We'll now move to Mr. Chen, please.

[Shaun Chen, Liberal, Scarborough North, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to start by thanking Deputy Minister Shugart and his team for their work. It's a tremendous undertaking to ensure the consistency and care that is provided to Canadians when they are abroad, oftentimes dealing with very time-consuming, complex situations regarding their health, well-being, and safety.

I want to thank the Auditor General and his team for pointing out some great areas in which we can do better.

I want to ask a question with respect to some numbers that were shared with us today. The deputy minister mentioned that in 2016, 52 million trips were made abroad by Canadians, and that represented an increase of 4% for the past 10 years. In the Auditor General's report, paragraph 7.3, the AG makes reference to 55 million trips abroad by Canadians in 2015, and points out that's a 21% increase from 10 years ago. I know we're looking at different years, but I would have suspected that the jump recorded in 2015 and 2016 over 10 years would be similar.

I'm not sure who wants to tackle this, but one is 4% and one is 21%.

[Carol McCalla]

That's the data that we had, and we confirmed it with Global Affairs on the number of visits abroad in that year. We didn't look more recently at 2016 data, but we verified it with public information available on site.

[Ian Shugart]

Chair, I'm happy to review that and give the members clarification.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you.

Mr. Chen.

[Shaun Chen, Liberal, Scarborough North, ON]

Thank you very much.

Moving on to the cost of providing consular services, the Auditor General noted that a service fee was set in 1995, of $25. That fee has not changed.

Generally speaking, when it comes, for example, to applying and getting a passport at one of the Canadian missions abroad, there is a built-in service fee, a cost recovery, and that is to ensure that the cost of service is being charged to those who are accessing the service.

Why has that fee not been changed since 1995?

[Heather Jeffrey]

As you know, the Auditor General found that we should be reviewing the fee. It is part of the fee that is charged within the overall passport fee, so we'll be working with IRCC and with Treasury Board as part of the review process that the Auditor General has recommended.

The cost of consular services is funded only in part through that fee, and in part through the reference levels of the department, in combination. The consular services that are being provided have not been constrained by the limitation of that fee remaining the same, but it is appropriate to review how we're going to resource the program effectively going forward, given what we see in terms of future projections of the demand for services.

[Shaun Chen, Liberal, Scarborough North, ON]

Absolutely. I'm hearing that with more people travelling—4%, 21%, but certainly an increase—there's a pressure and demand on the services that government provides to Canadians abroad. It's very important for us to be able to ensure that fees are aligned with the services that are being received.

When I look at exhibit 7.5 on page 21 of the AG's report, there is a chart that shows revenues from consular fees, as well as the cost of consular services, and there is a steep projected decline that will occur over the next three years in projected revenue from consular fees. What is that projection based on? I'm hearing at the same time that there is going to be a look at what fees are being collected. How is that data being extrapolated?

[Ian Shugart]

I think, as a general proposition, governments and government departments have a fairly high bar to achieve when they raise fees. Canadians would prefer smaller fees and I think the government is sensitive to that. It has to be justified by the data. I think part of the conclusion of the audit is that we have not had the kind of data that we've been able to apply, hence the new methodology and the data to support it.

Do you want to comment on that projection? I think that's just a divergence of volumes and current revenue.

[Heather Jeffrey]

Yes. I believe the projection comes from the fact that the consular service fee of $25 has remained the same, irrespective of whether it was a five-year or a 10-year passport that was issued. The move to the majority of Canadians taking on passports for 10 years leads to a significant reduction in the revenues, because that $25 fee is being collected only every 10 years instead of every five years. That results in the decline that you see.

[Shaun Chen, Liberal, Scarborough North, ON]

Could the Auditor General comment on that?

[Michael Ferguson]

That explanation is right. It's the move from the five-year to the 10-year passport. As more Canadians move to a 10-year passport, and the $25 fee is only charged at the time of obtaining the passport, that creates that large dip in revenues. You see in the chart, as well, that afterwards the revenues will start to go back up again.

[Shaun Chen, Liberal, Scarborough North, ON]

We need to be very thoughtful in how we approach this, moving forward, because there is an existing divergence between cost and revenue that is further exacerbated by the fact that individuals now have passports that have a longer validity period. That means that your revenues from those folks—unless they lose their passports—will be significantly decreased.

I know you're working on a plan, but have you given any thought to that exacerbated effect in terms of revenue versus cost?

[Ian Shugart]

That will be the object of the exercise—not just that issue, to account for volumes, and so on, but on the specific fee. In effect, I think we'll have to agree with Treasury Board on what is a business model for that service to Canadians.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you.

We'll now go back to Ms. Kusie, please.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm very fortunate to have spent a year in that operation centre on A2. I remember watching the sun come up over the river several times.

I would also like to take the time to thank all consular officers around the world.

Heather, I must say I think you have the most difficult job in the department without question.

As a former officer of the platform branch and management consular officer, I understand the mission budgeting process across the mission network. It was concluded in the audit report that mission resources, as you mentioned, Mr. Shugart, were not aligned with workloads to ensure an effective, consistent level of services to Canadians abroad.

Mr. Shugart, how is it that consular service standards were not made clear by this government in an effort for your department to appropriately distribute resources across missions?

[Ian Shugart]

Allocation of resources across missions is a complicated issue. Consular services would be only one element of that. Missions, as you know, have a wide variety of responsibilities, and this is one of them. I think what we will be able to do on the consular side...but even that will not capture all of the costs of missions. It will be to give us predictability and that close relationship between demand and the resources and the same business-like approach to all of the other requirements of missions, not all of which, of course, can be documented, predicted, and defined.

To the best of our ability, we allocate resources on the basis of a number of criteria: the number of people who are coming through, the existence of trade missions, of political engagement with the government in question, and so forth. It's a complicated process, but this will address at least one major part of it.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you very much.

My next question is section 7.12 recognizes the Canadian consular service charter. I'm wondering when was this created, and who it was created by. My follow-up question to those questions would be in regard to the passenger bill of rights, and where this document is at. Certainly while individuals should be able to rely upon the government, there comes a point when they must take personal responsibility for their travels abroad. Regarding that, at what point or where is the passenger bill of rights?

In addition to my first two questions, when was the Canadian consular service charter created, and by whom was it created, please?

[Heather Jeffrey]

I'll have to get back to you with the date of when it was created, but it was created by Global Affairs Canada in consultation with stakeholders to provide greater clarity about the list of services that Canadians could expect as part of the consular service. Sorry, the other question you had was about the....

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

The second one was in regard to the passenger bill of rights.