Public Accounts Committee on Feb. 19th, 2019

[Alain Tousignant]

If I may add, beyond what's been done at the regional level, nationally we've reached out to a working group. We now have a working group that is comprised of CBRF owners and representatives from each region across the country. We met in Ottawa a few months ago, and we've had discussions with them to try to be proactive and talk about the needs we have now and also in the future years. That outreach is really helping us out and trying to reach the right beds.

[Anne Kelly]

I have to say, it was a first meeting in several years with the CBRF's representatives. They're very supportive of the work that we're doing in terms of ensuring that we know the offenders' preferred location, where they're going and where the beds are in terms of bed inventory.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you very much.

We'll now move to Mr. Christopherson, please.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

The first thing I want to say is that—and I meant to say this in the first round—you mentioned that you have a background as a parole officer, and you mentioned a number of times the work they do. I just want to say probation and parole officers are like the secret sauce that makes this work. They're amazing people who are so dedicated and so smart, and they get very little thanks. They get mostly aggravation. It's a tough job, but it makes such a big difference.

I could never say enough about the work that the probation and parole officers do provincially and federally. They really are amazing people who could do so many other things, because they have so many skills, yet they dedicate themselves to an area that can be heartbreaking. Just making a determination whether your client is mad, sad or bad is a tough call, and then dealing with all of that. I just want to emphasize how blessed we are in Canada with professionals who dedicate themselves to probation and parole officers and the work that they do. It's amazing.

[Anne Kelly]

Thank you for that.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

It's well deserved.

On a lighter note, I want to share something. My Liberal colleagues from Ontario may know Steve Mahoney. Steve Mahoney was a Liberal MPP in Ontario who went on to become the president and CEO or chair of the WSIB. He was one of the funniest parliamentarians I've ever served with. He and Chris Stockwell had me in stitches.

The day I walked into the House after I'd been appointed to cabinet, one of the pages brought me a note. I opened it up. It was from Steve Mahoney and said, “Congratulations on your ascension to cabinet. You are now the landlord to a significant part of my family.” I always thought that was cute.

Now on a very different note, I want to talk about health cards.

In my now 15 years on this committee, nothing makes me crazier than seeing the previous recommendations made to departments or agencies and entities to do things and their not doing them. Then there's another audit, with the same recommendation and the same promises, and still they don't act.

On page 11 we have a similar problem. There was an internal audit regarding the problems around health cards in 2012 that identified this. Your own CSC found the same issue, as did the Correctional Investigator of Canada in 2014, which is now five years ago.

Please help me understand how you can have at least two, if not three, major audits that point out a problem that has to do with the health care of people returning to the community and Corrections failing to do anything about it on both counts, and here it is again in front of us.

Please explain to me how we got here and what's going to be different this time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Ms. Kelly.

[Anne Kelly]

Thank you again for all the things you said about probation and parole officers. It's much appreciated.

ID in general is an issue we've been tackling for a long time. The first thing that happens, once offenders are admitted to federal custody, is that a parole officer sits down with the offenders and ascertains what kind of cards they have, and if there are cards missing, assists them in getting the cards they require.

We've reached out to the provinces and territories to ensure that a process is in place at remand centres to retain, track, store and transfer the ID with the offender when they come into federal custody. Follow-up letters have even been written by the assistant commissioner to provincial counterparts to request ongoing assistance.

As I said, once an offender is admitted to federal custody, a parole officer sits down with the offender and figures out what cards the person is missing.

Ms. Wheatley will be able to speak more to the health card, but regional management is working with various stakeholders, including provincial health officials and Service Ontario, to reduce the barriers to accessing provincial cards. As you know, in many provinces you can't apply for a health card until you are released.

The other thing I'm very excited about, and this is building on the success of the Prairie region, is that we have a new partnership—it's going to be in the form of an MOU that we're poised to sign with Indigenous Services Canada—through which Indigenous Services Canada staff will visit various sites and assist indigenous offenders to apply for their status cards.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I'm sorry to interrupt. It's very good stuff. I hear you. I see you reading your talking points. You still didn't explain to me, though, how your organization failed to respond in 2012 and in 2014 to exactly the same recommendation, and I have no doubt that somewhere in there you were giving the same talking points.

The fact is, it didn't get done. I understand about the cards that are issued and those that can't be issued until they're out. That's in here; anybody can read it. You didn't tell me anything I didn't already know, Commissioner. I'm not impressed with that answer.

Chair, I only have two more questions.

On the action plan—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Please hurry. You're a minute and a half over.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I'll wait till the end if you wish, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Yes, that might be best, and then we'll keep on track here.

We'll now go to Monsieur Arseneault again, for five minutes.

[René Arseneault]

I want to remind you again that I haven't been involved in this committee's work for some time. This is my first meeting in a long time.

Mr. Swales or Mr. Hayes, on the reason for that study five years back.... It was from 2012-13 to 2017-18, right? Am I correct?

Is this the period covered by your study?

[Nicholas Swales]

Yes.

[René Arseneault]

From 2013-14 to 2017-18, the number of offenders released into the community increased by 17%.

In your comments, I can see that your case study is limited because you looked only at the offenders who returned to correctional institutions. Is that correct?

[Nicholas Swales]

No. The cases included in our study sample are the cases of individuals who were released during this period. This has nothing to do with whether the individuals returned to a correctional facility.

[René Arseneault]

Okay. I misunderstood.

In your presentation, you stated the following. “Finally, we found that Correctional Service Canada did not properly measure its success in meeting its mandate to reintegrate offenders into society as law-abiding citizens. The agency measured only convictions that resulted in the return of federal offenders to federal custody.” Okay. I understand. It's the agency.

In addition, some information is missing, including all the data concerning the provincial and territorial institutions.

Does the Office of the Auditor General have an objective view of what's happening in the provinces and territories?

[Andrew Hayes]

No. We aren't aware of the recidivism rates in the provinces and territories.

[Nicholas Swales]

That said, in paragraph 6.75 of our report, we refer to a study conducted by Public Safety Canada in 2003. This was quite a long time ago. However, the study, which included incarcerations in provincial and territorial institutions, showed a recidivism rate of about 25%. We don't know the current figures, and that's what we're pointing out. Our report refers to the most recent figures that we were able to find in the studies conducted on this topic.

[René Arseneault]

Okay. In 2002-03, 17 years ago, the total recidivism rate was 25%, a percentage that includes federal, provincial and territorial offenders. Is that correct?

[Nicholas Swales]

Yes.

[René Arseneault]

Ms. Kelly, I asked you a question earlier and I may have misspoke. How long has Correctional Service Canada been preparing to respond to the expected increase in the number of offenders released into the community? When did you realize that this would happen and that you needed to be prepared? I may have misunderstood your response.

[Anne Kelly]

The number of offenders under community supervision has been increasing since 2012-13. Back then, they amounted to 33% of the offender population, and they now amount to 40%.

In 2017, we conducted a more detailed internal study to establish projections and determine what needed to be done, both in correctional institutions and the community. At that time, we were able to see the cases or regions where there would be issues as a result of the inadequate number of beds. We worked hard at the local and regional level. Even the Auditor General acknowledged that we added many beds.

We're currently collecting information from each region to have a better idea of where these beds are located across the country and the type of beds needed in the community based on the offender profiles.

[René Arseneault]

With the responses you provided earlier, it's—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Arseneault, but we're over time already.