Evidence of meeting #135 for Public Accounts in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was buildings.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Jerome Berthelette  Assistant Auditor General, Performance Audit, Office of the Auditor General
Michael Nadler  Acting Chief Executive Officer, Parks Canada Agency
Kevin Stringer  Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Jody Thomas  Deputy Minister, Department of National Defence
Joëlle Montminy  Vice-President, Indigenous Affairs and Cultural Heritage Directorate, Parks Canada Agency
Genevieve Charrois  Director, Cultural Heritage Policies, Parks Canada Agency
Rob Chambers  Acting Assistant Deputy Minister, Infrastructure and Environment, Department of National Defence
Susan Gomez  Director, Office of the Auditor General

8:50 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mendès (Brossard—Saint-Lambert, Lib.)) Liberal Alexandra Mendes

Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the 135th meeting of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts.

I'm standing in for the chair, so this is a bit new to me.

Welcome to our guests who are here to testify on report number two of the 2018 fall reports of the Auditor General of Canada on conserving federal heritage properties.

We have with us, from the Office of the Auditor General, Mr. Jerome Berthelette and Ms. Susan Gomez, who is the Director in charge of the studies.

From Parks Canada Agency, we have Mr. Michael Nadler, Acting Chief Executive Officer; Ms. Joëlle Montminy, Vice-President, Indigenous Affairs and Cultural Heritage Directorate; and Madame Genevieve Charrois, Director, Cultural Heritage Policies.

From the Department of National Defence, we have the Deputy Minister, Ms. Thomas, and Mr. Rob Chambers, Acting Assistant Deputy Minister, Infrastructure and Environment.

From the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, we have Mr. Kevin Stringer, Associate Deputy Minister, and Mr. Bill Varvaris, Director General, Real Property and Environmental Management.

Welcome to all.

We are starting with the Office of the Auditor General.

Mr. Berthelette, the floor is yours.

8:50 a.m.

Jerome Berthelette Assistant Auditor General, Performance Audit, Office of the Auditor General

Madam Chair, thank you for this opportunity to present the results of our report on conserving federal heritage properties. In this audit, we looked at physical assets that the government safeguards on behalf of Canadians—in this case, the country's national historic sites and heritage buildings. Joining me at this table is Susan Gomez, who is the director responsible for this audit.

There are long-standing problems in the conservation of Canada's federal heritage properties, and we saw few improvements since we last audited this area in 2003 and 2007.

We found that Parks Canada, Fisheries and Oceans Canada, and National Defence either did not know how many heritage buildings they had or did not know what condition the buildings were in.

For example, Parks Canada's database identified that the agency had only 186 heritage buildings. That information was incorrect, so we asked the agency to review that number. The agency took over four weeks to provide us with what it said was a complete list of 504 heritage buildings.

Regarding the condition of heritage buildings, we found that National Defence's data was based on assessments completed in the 2009-10 fiscal year, even though assessments for most of their heritage buildings had recently been updated.

In 2017, Fisheries and Oceans Canada had updated assessments for only seven of its 267 heritage buildings.

As a result, the information that organizations provided to the public and to Parliament about these properties was either incorrect or incomplete. We also found that conservation decisions were based on available resources and operational requirements rather than on heritage considerations. The money that was needed to maintain federal heritage properties was not always available.

For example, Parks Canada told us that it had invested $50.5 million between 2015 and 2018 to maintain and conserve the agency's heritage properties; however, its deferred maintenance backlog on federal heritage properties was $1.2 billion in 2017.

We also noted that there was no link between the designation of new heritage buildings and their conservation. Needs have outpaced efforts when it comes to the conservation of federal heritage properties, yet the number of properties continues to grow. Because there has been no additional funding to conserve these properties, there is a risk that more may fall into disrepair and eventually be erased from the country's history.

Madam Chair, this concludes my opening remarks. We would be pleased to answer any questions the committee may have.

8:50 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mendès) Liberal Alexandra Mendes

Thank you very much, Mr. Berthelette.

I now invite Mr. Nadler, Acting Chief Executive Officer of Parks Canada, for his presentation.

8:50 a.m.

Michael Nadler Acting Chief Executive Officer, Parks Canada Agency

Thank you, Madam Chair. You've already introduced my colleagues, but just to repeat, you have representatives here from Parks Canada, the Department of National Defence and the Department of Fisheries and Oceans.

I would like to begin by thanking the chair and the committee members for inviting Parks Canada and our colleagues from other departments to appear today.

It is a privilege to testify before the committee and to have the opportunity to discuss the results of the recent Auditor General's report on the conservation of federal heritage properties.

We'd also like to express our thanks to the Office of the Auditor General for their collaboration in the conduct of this audit and also express our sincere condolences to our colleagues here at the table and their colleagues at their office on the recent passing of Auditor General Michael Ferguson.

Canada's natural and cultural heritage places are an essential part of all our identities as Canadians. Parks Canada has been entrusted with the mandate to protect and share with Canadians and the world some of the greatest examples of our nation's heritage, and we take this duty very seriously.

Parks Canada administers federal heritage designation and conservation programs on behalf of the Government of Canada. Preserving heritage places involves a broad community of stewards, including federal custodian departments, such as our colleagues here at the table. The community also includes federal agencies and Crown corporations, as well as provinces, territories, municipalities, indigenous peoples and communities, and a number of organizations active in the preservation of history and heritage across the country.

Over the years, the government has formally recognized more than 2,150 persons, places and events of national historic significance. There are over 1,300 federal heritage buildings, as well as 164 heritage railway stations and 39 Canadian heritage rivers. In addition, 19 world heritage sites in Canada have been inscribed on the world heritage list.

Each of these designations focuses on different objectives. Some are solely commemorative, others focus on protection and conservation, and others still are a combination of the two.

In our role as steward of built heritage, Parks Canada safeguards 171 national historic sites, 504 federal buildings and 10 heritage lighthouses. Incidentally, we're also responsible for more than 10,000 archeological sites across the country.

Some of these places, buildings and designations overlap. For example, the Rideau waterway, including the canal here in downtown Ottawa, is a national historic site, a world heritage site, part of the Canadian heritage river system and home to 26 federal heritage buildings.

Parks Canada also oversees the federal heritage buildings review office, which provides guidance to other federal custodians on the conservation of their heritage buildings.

The agency also administers a national cost-sharing program for heritage places, providing matching funds to eligible non-federal custodians of national historic sites, lighthouses and railway stations and to support heritage conservation and presentation projects.

We are proud of the work done by the agency and other federal departments, but we also recognize that we are facing a number of challenges related to the conservation of our cultural heritage.

Parks Canada welcomes the Auditor General's report on the conservation of federal heritage properties as part of our ongoing commitment to protect Canada's heritage places. The Auditor General's attention reflects the importance of Canada's built heritage to the government and to Canadians.

The agency is determined to address the shortcomings identified by the Auditor General with regard to its asset management databases and the related impact they have had on the information shared with Canadians and parliamentarians.

We are committed to ongoing improvement in data quality within the agency's national asset information management database, especially as it pertains to cultural heritage, and we'll monitor the results of these corrections to avoid any recurrence of errors in the future. Once up to date, the data will be maintained.

In the spirit of openness and transparency, Parks Canada will also work to improve public access to this information. As noted in the Auditor General's second recommendation, Parks Canada will continue to review the approach for designating federal heritage buildings and will work with partners to establish a consistent standard of heritage conservation across the federal government.

As part of the Treasury Board Secretariat policy reset initiative, Parks Canada will contribute to efforts to improve the language around life-cycle management of heritage properties, to ensure that federal heritage buildings and properties are managed in a manner that demonstrates sound stewardship and value for money, consistent with federal government priorities.

In parallel, as part of Parks Canada's response to the recommendations found in the Standing Committee on Environment and Sustainable Development's recent report on the preservation and protection of Canada's historic places, we are currently pursuing a research plan and stakeholder engagement aimed at identifying the right mix of measures that can be used to strengthen the conservation of historic places in Canada, including legislative measures and financial tools.

When the Auditor General's Office visited several Parks Canada sites, they observed that some built assets were in poor condition. Since those visits, I'm pleased to report that Parks Canada has been able to make considerable progress on improving the condition of the heritage properties that we administer.

While many challenges remain, hundreds of millions in federal investments are being made to preserve, rehabilitate and restore national historic sites such as the Fortress of Louisbourg, the Rideau Canal, Province House, Grosse Île and the Irish Memorial National Historic Site, and the Klondike National Historic Sites.

These investments lead to the remediation of many heritage sites and buildings across Canada. The agency is working hard to develop strategies to be able to maintain those important places going forward.

Parks Canada recognizes the inestimable value of our country's natural and cultural heritage. We welcome the report of the Auditor General and are grateful to the committee for this opportunity to discuss our work in the preservation and presentation of some of Canada's greatest historic places.

We thank you for your time.

My colleagues and I will be happy to receive your questions.

8:55 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mendès) Liberal Alexandra Mendes

Thank you very much, Mr. Nadler.

I don't think anybody else has a presentation, so I will go to questions now.

Mr. Arseneault, you are up first.

8:55 a.m.

Liberal

René Arseneault Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I thank all our witnesses.

Before I start asking my questions, I want to provide some context on what I think about the issue and explain why this matter is important to me. I have been an avid outdoorsman for a long time. To give you an idea of how important Canadian heritage and especially Parks Canada, are to me, let me say that, for our honeymoon, more than three decades ago, my wife and I visited all the national parks in one summer, which took us more than two months. So I am very familiar with those parks. I am very familiar with heritage sites. I have an amateur interest in history in general. You now understand what this issue means to me.

I was shocked and saddened to read in the Auditor General's report that it wasn't even possible to make a complete list of heritage properties belonging to each department. I heard what you just said, Mr. Nadler, and I know this issue focuses on three institutions: Parks Canada, National Defence and Fisheries and Oceans Canada.

Can Fisheries and Oceans Canada give us a complete list of heritage properties it currently owns?

9 a.m.

Kevin Stringer Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Yes, we can do that.

9 a.m.

Liberal

René Arseneault Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB

Great.

How long has that list been ready?

9 a.m.

Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Kevin Stringer

For about two months.

9 a.m.

Liberal

René Arseneault Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB

So, it was in 2019. Well done.

Parks Canada, can you do the same?

9 a.m.

Acting Chief Executive Officer, Parks Canada Agency

Michael Nadler

We have a complete list of properties that belong to us, in the regions. The problem had to do with making a national list, which we are currently updating and which should be ready in the fall of 2019.

9 a.m.

Liberal

René Arseneault Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB

So it's not yet done. However, that was mentioned in 2003 and 2007.

Could National Defence provide us with its list?

9 a.m.

Jody Thomas Deputy Minister, Department of National Defence

At Defence we knew the number of buildings we had: 292. They weren't all appropriately listed in our database, and that's now been updated, and we have 78 to assess this coming year.

9 a.m.

Liberal

René Arseneault Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB

When you say you have to assess 78 buildings, is that about checking the condition of the structure, the frame or the building?

9 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of National Defence

Jody Thomas

It's a complete condition report of the assets, so it is foundation to roof, everything about that asset, and then we list it in our database. We decide on a priority basis what we will address in terms of repair and maintenance.

9 a.m.

Liberal

René Arseneault Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB

Okay.

How much time do I have left, Madam Chair?

9 a.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mendès) Liberal Alexandra Mendes

You have another five minutes left.

9 a.m.

Liberal

René Arseneault Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB

Great.

When it comes to Parks Canada, how can you explain that you were only able to make a complete list of your heritage sites in 2019? What is the problem?

9 a.m.

Joëlle Montminy Vice-President, Indigenous Affairs and Cultural Heritage Directorate, Parks Canada Agency

As my colleague just said, we had a complete list of heritage properties and their condition, but it was divided among various regional sites in the country. The list existed, I assure you, and it was complete. People who administer those properties were aware of the list's existence.

The issue was at the national level. That list included all the properties administered by Parks Canada—there are more than 17,000 of them—and not only heritage properties. However, the list did not include the most recent details on heritage properties. So we are currently updating it, and that requires us to import information from a number of databases.

9 a.m.

Liberal

René Arseneault Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB

Generally speaking, how are all the buildings and structures in our national parks doing today? Are they in good condition? I have read that certain buildings were in danger of collapsing, which is worrisome.

In general, how are our national parks doing?

9 a.m.

Acting Chief Executive Officer, Parks Canada Agency

Michael Nadler

That is a very broad question. We are currently implementing a significant investment project.

9 a.m.

Liberal

René Arseneault Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB

You can talk in English.

9 a.m.

Acting Chief Executive Officer, Parks Canada Agency

Michael Nadler

I can get by in French, it's just that the word in French is a bit complicated.

So we are talking about a $3.5-billion investment project. We are currently improving the condition of many properties on our sites.

9 a.m.

Liberal

René Arseneault Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB

You may think that I am preaching for my own parish, but, as I come from the Atlantic region—I am an Acadian—and Canada's history begins with New France, I am wondering who is in charge of the Louisbourg site. Is it Parks Canada?

How is Louisbourg doing? It's the jewel of the country.

9 a.m.

Acting Chief Executive Officer, Parks Canada Agency

Michael Nadler

It is definitely one of its jewels.