Public Accounts Committee on May 14th, 2019

[Sylvain Ricard]

We have in the office what I'll call a consultative committee. We bring in people from the private firms once a year to have a discussion with them about what's out there in the environment in the business and so on. At the last meeting that took place, two or three months ago, the private sector firms were very clear to us that we are significantly behind where they are and the way they're doing their business.

[Randeep Sarai, Liberal, Surrey Centre, BC]

So the KPMGs, the big five, would be well advanced?

[Sylvain Ricard]

They were there. Partners of those firms are on that advisory committee. It's important for us not to remain in our office and not speak to people out there and consult, because then you wouldn't realize you were going towards a problem.

[Randeep Sarai, Liberal, Surrey Centre, BC]

Do you think that the weakness in IT also affects productivity such that you need more people to do the same amount of work? Does it have an impact on that? Is there a cost benefit to getting upgraded IT software, in the sense that you will have to use, perhaps, fewer man-hours or will be able to get more audits done with a more sophisticated, up-to-date IT software than with outdated software?

[Sylvain Ricard]

There's probably some benefit, but I would say it's more or less at the margin. What is really the driver here is to be able to do a very good audit. Two things come with the reality of the challenges we're facing.

One is that it causes us recruitment challenges, because people won't want to join an organization that is not up to date in technology. Second, in not having tools that allow you to audit systems at entities that are more advanced than yours, at some point there's a disconnect. We have to find solutions that—

[Randeep Sarai, Liberal, Surrey Centre, BC]

On that same wavelength, is there an issue that new or recent grads from the audit world are trained on software that is much more advanced and, therefore, find it challenging to work with a more primitive system such as we may have? Is that what you're trying to allude to? For somebody coming out of university who applies to a government job, the software that he or she is trained in is perhaps more advanced than the software that is being used in the Government of Canada.

[Sylvain Ricard]

Exactly, they are more current and they see other places where they can work that have technology that is more advanced than ours and that are more interesting to them.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

I'll allow you one more thought.

[Randeep Sarai, Liberal, Surrey Centre, BC]

It's on cybersecurity. Do you have contingency plans in the event of a cybersecurity event, based on the current technology you have?

[Sylvain Ricard]

Yes, we've made an assessment that came up with a number of elements to address and have prepared an action plan to address every one of them.

[Randeep Sarai, Liberal, Surrey Centre, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Mr. Christopherson.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

One of the benefits of being around for a long time and the supreme benefit of not running again is that you have absolutely no need for and no interest in headlines. I'm thus not going to make any further comments. I've had some consultation with my fellow vice-chair and the chair of the committee, as well as with the representatives of the official opposition caucus, and there seems to be some interest in buying ourselves some time.

If possible, it would be in all our interests to avoid this train wreck. I personally will make it my mission in life between now and when I leave in the next few months to scream from the mountain tops that the government is stifling accountability, and this would be the beginning.

Chair, at a time you think is appropriate, I'd like to move a motion to table the discussion and the vote on the estimates for a week to give the government members an opportunity—and I don't want to put words in their mouths, but as I understand it, an opportunity—to go back to their government and ask some of the questions that have been raised here and satisfy themselves that it's the right thing, or help us find a way to get this amended so that we can get back to where we need to be.

I'm just going to stand down any further comments, and when you feel it's appropriate, I'd like to be given the floor to move a motion to table the vote on the estimates for a week.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

All right. Thank you, Mr. Christopherson, I will do that.

Mr. Ayoub, you may go ahead for five minutes.

[Ramez Ayoub, Liberal, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank the witnesses for being here. This is my first time participating in this committee, so I find the discussion quite informative.

I'm going to go straight to the heart of the matter, as I see it: the fact that you were denied the funding you requested. How has your office's funding changed over the last five years? Do you have that information in hand, or will you need to forward it to us later? Has your funding gone up over the years?

[Sylvain Ricard]

Hopefully my answer will suffice, but if not, we may have other information here we can share, or we can send you further details afterwards. What I would say is this.

Our funding has basically stayed the same, except for two things: an additional $8 million announced in the 2018 budget and amounts allocated by default because they are tied to economic increases.

[Ramez Ayoub, Liberal, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

You said your funding stayed the same, but are you comparing it with last year's?

[Sylvain Ricard]

I would say since 2011.

[Ramez Ayoub, Liberal, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Your funding hasn't changed since 2011. Is that correct?

[Sylvain Ricard]

Our funding hasn't changed, except for statutory increases, which happen automatically.

[Ramez Ayoub, Liberal, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

I see.

Have you asked for additional funding in recent years, or is this the first time?

[Sylvain Ricard]

The increase in 2018 was the first we had asked for in nearly 12 years. The time before, a big chunk of the funding we were requesting was to modernize our audit methodology.

[Ramez Ayoub, Liberal, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Were you given a specific reason as to why your request was denied?

[Sylvain Ricard]

No.

We followed the application rules, and we submitted the request in writing. We didn't find out that we would be receiving the extra $8 million until we read Budget 2018, along with everyone else. In 2019, we read the budget and—

[Ramez Ayoub, Liberal, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

You said you submitted your request in writing—I'm not sure whether you mean online or by email—but did you speak with anyone at the time?