Public Accounts Committee on Feb. 23rd, 2021

[Bill Matthews]

Go ahead, please, Jean-Pierre.

[Jean-Pierre Blais]

Let's say a department wanted to do a campaign in a third language or an indigenous language. They would provide us with an English and French version. They would certify that it's a valid translation. That's what we would send to the advertising standard council.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I would share with you, and I would put to this committee, that I've seen in government communications that things said in English in Ontario are said a little bit differently in French in Quebec, with a little bit of a different nuance. When the proposed ads are for ethnic media—particularly through COVID and the public health emergencies, I would hope, at least, that we would be translating these broadly—are you reviewing the translated ads or are you reviewing only the English or French translations of those ads?

[Jean-Pierre Blais]

We are looking at the communication products of larger campaigns, but based on the translation of, let's say, a third language provided by the department.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

So there is no way of telling, if something got translated into Urdu or Punjabi, or if something got translated into Chinese, that the person doing that translation may, as indicated by previous speakers, have within them their own inherent political biases. We're not actually quality checking the finished translated product. We're just taking word for it that it's coming from the English or French original document. Is that correct?

[Jean-Pierre Blais]

If there is a creative product that is in a third language, for pragmatic operational reasons the review is not done in the original language. It is done in a translation of that version by the ads council. I have to rely on the assertion of the advertising department that the translation they provide us is accurate.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Okay. Thank you for that. I'm glad we're clear on that.

Deputy Auditor General, I'm going to make a statement and then ask you to make a comment on it.

The way I've summarized your report is that the Government of Canada's oversight of advertising was not sufficiently robust to ensure that the Government of Canada was meeting its commitment that public funds were not to be spent on partisan advertising. Is that a fair summary of the overall message of the report?

[Andrew Hayes]

I think that's a fair summary. We did identify areas for improvement, particularly in documentation. We made recommendations for the government to consider adjustments to the risk-based approach it's taking. I will acknowledge that while we haven't had the opportunity to audit the developments since 2019, there have been some that have been made.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

It seems like the government...and perhaps this is just the nature of bureaucracies. They are often fixated on processes and not necessarily on the outcomes.

You know, I'm sure, through your previous delegations, that I have a particular interest in gender-based analysis plus, with a particular interest in plus in terms of equity. Do you have within your reviews the lens that looks for what we just heard from the previous speaker, that looks for an analysis that would take into account the different cultural nuances we have? Are you seeing that as a measurable or a deliverable, and that this is something that is significant and missing, or is that something that's not front of mind when you do these reports?

[Andrew Hayes]

I would say that it wasn't front of mind when we were doing these reports over the past couple of years. However, since Ms. Hogan has taken over the chair as Auditor General, the focus on gender-based analysis plus and the sustainable development goals has been at the front of her mind, and in fact is a priority area for our office. I would say that you can expect to see more on both of those coming forward in her future reports.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

If I could, given the question that you just heard me ask, is it a leap for me to think that it's a significant gap in communications if we're not actually quality checking and providing a standard to the finished product? By recognizing only two official languages, we're missing significant cultural competencies in the way we are able to provide oversight. Or am I maybe going beyond what's reasonable?

[Andrew Hayes]

I think the point you have raised puts a focus on how delicate the advertising reviews are. There's a lot of nuance in the statements and the things that can be considered partisan.

From our position as an auditor, we would look to see what the government considered as they were proceeding with their work, including gender-based analysis plus considerations and the intersection of the various characteristics that affect people, including the target audiences. So I think your question is interesting.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you. So I'll also be in the future looking for things that aren't there, not just the things that are.

Thank you for that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

Thank you very much, Mr. Green.

We will now go to our second round of questioning. It's a five-minute round, and we will start with Mr. Berthold.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, as well, to the witnesses for being with us today.

My first question is for Ms. Acton. We heard earlier that the number of complaints about partisanship in government advertising is quite low. Ms. Acton said the complaint form was available on the Canada.ca site.

Ms. Acton, I tried looking for the information on how to file a complaint on Canada.ca, but I wasn't able to find it. The site is supposed to answer any question Canadians may have about the Government of Canada. You said the Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat had posted information about how to file a complaint on Twitter, and that's how I found it.

Don't you think it's a problem when a simple process to file a complaint about government advertising isn't readily accessible to Canadians?

Canada.ca is supposed to cover everything government-related. I don't think you're making it easy for Canadians to file complaints about partisan advertising.

[Kelly Acton]

Thank you for your question.

We work every day to make sure information on how the government operates is transparent and readily available to Canadians. I'm always amenable to taking another look at how we can make it easier for people to find the website. I'd be happy to share the link with the committee, as well.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Ms. Acton, what matters is having a simpler and more accessible process for Canadians who wish to file a complaint, because right now, that's not the case.

I have another question for you.

We are in the midst of a pandemic, and the government is running all kinds of ad campaigns. Since the Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat still uses a dollar value as the threshold for its reviews, I'm wondering when exactly ad campaigns undergo review.

Does it happen when they are developed, publicized or later?

When do the red flags go up?

[Jean-Pierre Blais]

Madam Chair, I may be able to answer that.

The process provides for an initial review and a final review. In the initial review, the department submits a fairly comprehensive document on the communication plan. It includes information on the proposed media, the communication strategies and funding amounts. That initial review determines whether the proposed campaign is sent to Ad Standards for review. Then, once any changes have been made, the campaign goes to the committee a second time.

It's important to understand the difference between the overall ad campaign and the individual creative components. For instance, a campaign valued at more than $250,000 may have very short ads on a website, but also a full-length ad on television.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Does the committee that reviews the ads see them before they run or only afterwards?

[Jean-Pierre Blais]

It sees the ads before they run.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

All the content, all the creative components, are seen before they are publicized, then.

[Jean-Pierre Blais]

Those that are subject to the group's review are, yes.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

For advertising campaigns under $250,000, departments are therefore free to submit them for that review, or not. So they can quickly decide to make advertisements that will not necessarily be subject to external review.

[Jean-Pierre Blais]

Let's not forget that deputy ministers of departments and agencies are responsible for complying with the policy.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

The Auditor General's report indicated that some advertisements did indeed have a higher risk.

Have any advertisements been pulled since the Auditor General's report was released?