Evidence of meeting #28 for Public Accounts in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was long-term.
A video is available from Parliament.
Deputy Minister, Department of Indigenous Services
I can't give an exact date because, as you pointed out, some things can be planned in advance of a specific deadline, but others can be delayed. What I can tell you is that the department is 100% ready to work with all 33 communities to eliminate the long-term advisories.
Conservative
Luc Berthold Conservative Mégantic—L'Érable, QC
My understanding is that, as a politician, in government or anywhere, it's very risky to set a deadline for an issue of this nature, which involves so many variables. It can take twice as long to build a plant in some parts of Canada than in areas near ports and equipment.
Deputy Minister, Department of Indigenous Services
True, but setting a goal sometimes gets people engaged and motivated to work towards it. The department is continuing to work with the goal of meeting the deadlines. We still have work to do.
The minister said in November that we wouldn't meet the deadline. However, I think that we're in a good position to fulfil our goal, given our funding, the team in place, our relationship with the communities, the partnership created and the transparency of our approach.
There's work to be done and we're being challenged, but we want to work in a partnership.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly Block
Thank you very much. That is the end of your time, Mr. Berthold.
We will move on to Mr. Sorbara for five minutes.
Liberal
Francesco Sorbara Liberal Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON
Thank you, Chair
Thank you to the Auditor General for the report.
I have lot of questions.
Just to Mr. Berthold's earlier comment, I spent a lot of time last night reading through all the documents, including Mr. Webber's comments on the funds and programs that we've committed to the indigenous community across Canada in the budget that we recently introduced. I'm very happy to see the continuing investments, of course. I would have loved to have received this detailed action plan last night to have been able to review it a little more extensively. I have gone through it now, so I'm going to go to that right now.
Just on the O and M side, is the 100% commitment in the funding formula in place today for the indigenous communities?
Deputy Minister, Department of Indigenous Services
Yes, it is in place today.
Liberal
Francesco Sorbara Liberal Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON
Okay, so there's no cost-sharing, as in municipal, provincial or federal sharing. Is it all in place?
Liberal
Francesco Sorbara Liberal Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON
Thank you.
In paragraph 2.3, where you break out a number of items in numerical amounts, what is the annual commitment to O and M? It's going to be growing as more water advisories are lifted and more water treatment plants and purification systems come online, so I would love to know what the annual commitment is if someone could come back with that. I was trying to go through the numbers and I would love to get to where it says what we are spending and investing in ensuring that indigenous communities have safe and clean water systems.
That's great to hear, because that is a big thing that was pointed out in the AG's report.
Second, holistically, with the budget commitment that we recently introduced, approximately $42 billion is being invested into the indigenous communities across Canada, so it's great to see that, and I just wanted to point that out. That includes the $11 billion from the prior government.
On the payments to the individuals running the water treatment plants, is that a decision by each of the indigenous communities themselves to make, or is that in partnership with the federal government?
Deputy Minister, Department of Indigenous Services
In terms of the water operators and the salaries for the water operators, it is the decision of the communities to make and to establish the rates. However, obviously, with the increase in O and M that we can give to the communities, they have the ability to have competitive salaries in their communities.
To answer your question around the yearly basis, in 2021 O and M is $338 million, I believe, and by 2025 we're going to be at about $400 million per year on O and M.
Liberal
Francesco Sorbara Liberal Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON
In regard to the contracting, putting out the bid and the request for proposal for these treatment plants, obviously there is an economies of scale perspective. Does that happen from the federal government and it is then turned over to the indigenous community so that each indigenous community doesn't have to develop its own expertise in order to do this? Is it done through a partnership? Can you describe that process?
Deputy Minister, Department of Indigenous Services
Yes, absolutely. Thank you for the question.
It definitely is a partnership process. At the federal government, we do not want to be selecting contractors for indigenous communities. We would like the indigenous leadership to make those choices. However, we do want to work with them. If they require supports, information or additional capacity to work with contractors, we're absolutely prepared to do that, but at the end of the day we really want them to be making the decisions that are best for them.
Liberal
Francesco Sorbara Liberal Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON
I am a numbers person. I like to think about the world in that sort of sense. On page 4 of your introductory remarks, you said there were 105 long-term drinking water advisories in November 2015. Obviously, more have been added as we go along, and some have been taken off. There were 106 lifted.
When we introduce interim measures, which obviously mean that water can be consumed, and so forth, are they lifted and then counted as lifted advisories, or are they put in a separate bucket of projects that are still ongoing? How do we account for that when we use interim measures?
Deputy Minister, Department of Indigenous Services
If there is an interim measure, yes, it could lift the water advisory. What we try to do is work with communities to make sure that if the interim measures are in place and we lift the advisory, we still work with them on the longer-term solution. I think what this additional funding allows is for us to do that work with them.
Liberal
Francesco Sorbara Liberal Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON
Okay.
Finally, on the resources dedicated to lifting all the water advisories, obviously COVID-19 has delayed many things on the construction side, even in terms of going to certain communities because we don't want the COVID-19 virus or any of the variants there, but are the resources sufficient to lift the remaining long-term water advisories?
Deputy Minister, Department of Indigenous Services
Yes. We have a long-term commitment of funding of O and M. It's for capital infrastructure and for O and M funding, and I would say that the O and M funding is key because it allows us to track and monitor and avoid deficiencies in the long term.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly Block
Thank you very much, Mr. Sorbara.
We will now go to our two-and-a-half-minute round, starting with Mr. Blanchette-Joncas.
Bloc
Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
My first questions are for Ms. Fox.
Good morning and welcome to the committee, Ms. Fox.
I suppose that it isn't very pleasant for you to appear before the Standing Committee on Public Accounts today. We know that the Auditor General tabled a less than glowing report in Parliament on your organization's work to meet the basic need of providing safe drinking water to indigenous communities. This basic need is more than vital. You'll agree that the report speaks for itself.
I know that some progress has been made and that many initiatives have been put in place to address the issue. I just want you to clearly state whether you find it acceptable that, for over 10 years, communities have had to boil their water on a daily basis before consuming it.
Deputy Minister, Department of Indigenous Services
Through its action plan, the department is committed to ensuring the elimination of all long-term advisories so that people can access safe drinking water. This drives us to take action and continue the work. We want to ensure that communities aren't under advisories. We completely agree that all Canadians should have access to safe drinking water.
Bloc
Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski-Neigette—Témiscouata—Les Basques, QC
I understand, Ms. Fox, but 10 years is a long time. I still find it difficult to read all the findings of the Office of the Auditor General. Most campgrounds provide better service than the services available to some indigenous communities.
I'm trying to understand. I agree that the COVID-19 pandemic slowed down some activities. However, at what point did your department already know, even at the start of the pandemic, that the work would slow down significantly?
In December 2020, the government offered a mea culpa to mitigate the situation before the submission of the Auditor General's report. The government knew that the report would be scathing. I can't imagine that you didn't know about this until December 2020. The pandemic had been going on for almost a year.
When did your department realize that the pandemic would slow down some of your ongoing work?
Deputy Minister, Department of Indigenous Services
I think that it should be noted—
Conservative
Deputy Minister, Department of Indigenous Services
It is important to note that in March 2020, the department was beginning to think about the effects of the COVID-19 pandemic. We did a reassessment, over the summer, when the second wave seemed to be diminishing. We thought that a decrease in cases would allow us to begin work.
However, the arrival of the third wave in September and October had a much more pronounced impact in indigenous communities. We were thinking about acceleration strategies, but when we saw the number of cases and closures in the fall, we realized that we were not going to meet the timeline.