Public Accounts Committee on April 29th, 2021

[Karen Hogan]

During our planning we did have some conversations with first nations communities. As we mentioned earlier, we try to always visit them, but because of the pandemic we were unable to do that. We have some difficulties trying to do so virtually with them, but it is always our objective to make sure that we consider the points and opinions of first nations communities whenever we do any audit work that affects them.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Were you able to speak to any of the band leaders?

[Karen Hogan]

I think I'm going to ask Glenn Wheeler to talk about that since he would have been there from start to finish, and he'd be able to give you more details on it.

[Glenn Wheeler, Principal, Office of the Auditor General]

No, we were unable to speak to individual first nations during this audit, as the Auditor General has mentioned. We typically do that, but the reality is that a lot of first nations were dealing with COVID and the impact of COVID during the time period of our audit and it didn't make sense for us to do that detailed work or consultation we would typically do with first nations. We did speak with the Assembly of First Nations, however, and some of their experts to get their views on water.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

It wasn't possible to do virtual meetings with them?

[Glenn Wheeler]

It wasn't possible in this audit. However, when we did some earlier planning before COVID—we did long-term planning on where to focus future audit work—we did visit a number of first nations and their water treatment plants and spoke to their water treatment operators and their band managers to get a sense of what the issues were, but that was before we formally started this audit.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Ms. Fox, how many short-term water advisories are there, and how can the department prevent these short-term water advisories from becoming long-term ones?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

I will need you to provide a very short answer, please.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

The time goes fast.

[Christiane Fox]

I was just looking at my chart. We've lifted 179 short-term advisories, and then I'm going to have to get you the precise number for the active ones. I don't want to mislead you. I'll get you the precise number of how many short-term are active right now.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

Thank you very much.

[Christiane Fox]

I'm sorry; it's nine. Nine is the answer. It's here.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

Thank you very much, Ms. Yip.

We will now go to our next round of questioning, which is six minutes, starting with Mr. Lawrence.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Thank you very much.

I want to go back to you, Ms. Fox, in the line of questioning we were on.

We had the pledge to have all drinking water advisories done initially by this spring. What is the recalibrated goal, now that the government has acknowledged that obviously we won't be achieving that goal?

[Christiane Fox]

As I mentioned, there are 33 communities that still have 52 long-term drinking water advisories. We're going to continue to work very closely with them.

What we're looking at in the short term is what kind of progress can be made over the next few months, especially taking into account the spring and summer construction. Obviously, with COVID still very present in a number of communities, we're looking to see what can and can't be done and what types of security measures could be put in place by way of rapid testing and other types of supports that we could provide, if communities decide that they want to proceed with construction or maintenance.

I can tell you that we remain committed to it. I can tell you that we have an action plan for each of the 33 communities, but it would be premature for me to put a time frame on this today, given that we're still living in the midst of COVID.

I really want to make sure that we have conversations with first nations and that they tell us when they feel that it's the right time to adjust or fix or build, or whatever process and step they're in.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Thank you, Ms. Fox.

On the bigger scale, as I discussed with the AG, we were at 43% being at high or medium risk. Will we, in the next five years, get down to zero? Everyone here wants to get to zero, and I know probably you most of all want to get there.

We need to know for the indigenous communities out there when we will be at zero for high- to medium-risk situations.

[Christiane Fox]

First of all, it might be helpful for the committee to know that in terms of the risk rating, we look at very specific points for the risk rating of a system: the water source, the system design, the system operation and maintenance, the operator training and certification, and the record keeping and reporting. Those are the high-level metrics by which we measure a high-risk or a medium-risk system.

As we look at the recommendations of the OAG and at the budget investments over the last cycles, we have to see how we address these so that we bring the number down.

The high-risk number has come down. High risk right now is at about 15% of projects, and you noted the 43% figure for high and medium. As we look at long-term solutions and not interim solutions, we see fewer projects of a high-risk nature. As we look at more funding for operators and maintenance and they're active in the communities, we again reduce the risk factor.

We'll continue to monitor.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Thank you.

I'm concerned. I understand that your intentions are good, but words like “commitment” and “engagement” and “investments” don't cut it for people who right now cannot get clean water. We need commitments in terms of times and deadlines, etc.

On that note, I'd like to cede the rest of my time to Ms. Ashton for her questioning, as I think it's been great and critical.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Thank you very much to my colleague for that.

My question is to the Auditor General. I want to raise the issue of Red Sucker Lake.

Red Sucker Lake has a water treatment plant that was constructed in 1995. We know that the infrastructure in Red Sucker Lake First Nation to deliver dependable clean drinking water is simply not where it needs to be. In fact, when Red Sucker Lake was dealing with the COVID-19 outbreak before the end of December, it took the Canadian Forces to come in and identify clearly that having only one water truck to service the community was not only not adequate but was actually contributing to making people sick with COVID-19.

These are catastrophic implications. The AG report referred to how, in many cases, ISC seemed to rely on short-term solutions such as water trucks—and not enough of them—to solve water advisories. What we saw with Red Sucker Lake is that this is not what's needed.

What is keeping Indigenous Services Canada from making the investments necessary to ensure that communities don't have to rely on unsafe water practices, as in the case of Red Sucker Lake?

[Karen Hogan]

I acknowledge that when so many communities have to deal with short-term and long-term drinking water advisories and all these temporary measures, they lose confidence in their water system, and that is definitely something that needs to be reversed and addressed.

All I can tell you is what we found in our audit, which showed the department's lack of the ability to meet its commitment. I linked it to the lack of a regulatory regime and issues with the funding formula, and hence inappropriate funding to those communities.

Your more pointed question, as to why it has taken so long to address those matters, will have to go to the department.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Let's turn it to the department.

In the case of Red Sucker Lake, why has it taken so long—and frankly, the presence of the Canadian Forces—to say that what they're facing is downright unsafe?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

Give a very short answer, please.

[Christiane Fox]

In situations like Shamattawa and Red Sucker Lake, in COVID we have been working in lockstep with community leadership to support them during this pandemic. As you noted, COVID has pointed to the lack of housing and some of the other socio-economic gaps that exist.

We are committed to working with Red Sucker Lake and Shamattawa and to using these investments to address long-term solutions for the community.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly Block]

Thank you very much, Ms. Ashton.

We will now go to Mr. Blois for six minutes.