Evidence of meeting #101 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was contracts.
A video is available from Parliament.
President, Public Health Agency of Canada
Yes. The frequency of meetings that occurred with the CBSA, Public Health Agency and PCO with regard to the ArriveCAN app.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Okay. Thank you.
I'll turn to you, Mr. Brock. Are you good with that? No. Don't expand it, but go ahead.
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
No. I just want a clarification.
Did you include Minister Hajdu and the PCO in your description?
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
The PCO was mentioned. Ministerial communications would be different.
I'm going to let you come back to that, because you have another round. We have agreement on this.
Ms. Yip, there is agreement, but you have the floor on a point of order, if you like, and then you will have the floor after your point of order.
Is this the point of order?
Liberal
Jean Yip Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON
Yes. First of all, this is a lot for the production of documents.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Ms. Yip, I will stop you.
The witness has agreed to provide the documents. Normally, the committee looks for an answer in about two weeks, at which point we begin to make inquiries, but it has been agreed to by the witness.
I need to know what your point of order is.
February 20th, 2024 / 12:05 p.m.
Liberal
Jean Yip Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON
It would have been better if we had had this discussion as a committee.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Okay.
Ms. Yip, you now have the floor for five minutes. It's over to you.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
We are not yet over the time. We started late and we're still going through it. It is my intention to get through the full round, which will give our colleagues in the Bloc and the NDP time after you, and then we'll wrap things up in the normal round.
Liberal
Jean Yip Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON
Okay.
Although the Auditor General made only one recommendation to PHAC, I'd still like to know if there are any current action plans. What is happening right now?
For example, the response to recommendation 1.47 says PHAC has stated it will “update guidance and/or checklists with respect to file documentation, noting requirements to document interactions with potential contractors.” What progress can you report on this?
President, Public Health Agency of Canada
Both of the recommendations that were made by the procurement ombud will be completed by next month and are on track.
We have taken steps to codify the need for IT project governance as part of our emergency preparedness planning. We have stood up a contract management committee that will have oversight across the agency of all contracts. We have renewed our training and checklists in terms of the documentation that needs to be provided for contracting, and we are reinforcing the requirements of the directives across the agency.
Liberal
President, Public Health Agency of Canada
The training of our staff can be tracked. We will have regular reporting requirements, and there will continue to be internal controls exercised in reviewing and sampling contracts.
Liberal
Jean Yip Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON
There is also a review of the current process in place to ensure compliance with file documentation, as per Treasury Board directives on the management of procurement, by October 31, 2024. Why will it take the agency over seven months to verify that its practices are compliant with the directive?
President, Public Health Agency of Canada
What we had hoped to accomplish by that time is the regular sampling and testing to make sure that the documentation has been taking place in the normal course of business on contracts that we're entering into. That is a requirement—that we will have tested the effective implementation of the measures.
Liberal
Jean Yip Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON
How close are you to this directive in terms of completing...?
President, Public Health Agency of Canada
The requirements are in place as of now. We are going to be doing further review and training to make sure that, given the number of new staff that have joined the agency through the pandemic years, we have the same level of training and comfort with the directives. Then we are going to be monitoring and verifying compliance with the implementation.
Liberal
Jean Yip Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON
My last question is for the Auditor General. After hearing all of these questions and testimonies, is there anything else you would add for PHAC?
Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General
If I were looking at going forward, what I'd like to see some of the departments and agencies do is think about how to find a way, when it comes to IT procurement, to upscale the public service so that, while you might turn to a contractor to get a skill that you don't need to employ 365 days a year, you still need to worry about upscaling the public service to be more digital.
In that vein, I would encourage departments and agencies to think about things that might need to be digitalized, things that are normally done on paper, so that we're not doing it in an emergency. The need to react quickly shouldn't be used as a reason not to follow good procurement rules, good project management practices and definitely good financial record-keeping.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Thank you, Ms. Yip.
Ms. Sinclair‑Desgagné, you have two and a half minutes.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I'd like to come back to my previous question. I have to say that I'm a bit uncomfortable hearing you talk about the size of the Public Health Agency, since hundreds of thousands of SMEs across the country are capable of budgeting with three employees, tracking objectives and following up.
Of course, the size of the Public Health Agency doesn't justify, either at the start of the pandemic or during the creation of ArriveCAN, the fact that there was no budget or follow‑up and no questions about the creation of the app.
Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General
You asked me if I knew why that was the case. I answered that the size of the agency could be one explanation and that the pandemic might be another.
I agree that these are circumstances and that we still need to be properly accountable. The Secretary of the Treasury Board had asked the public service to be more flexible and faster, but still to document everything properly, with a view to good accountability.
Bloc
Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC
So why didn't they follow the recommendation of the Treasury Board Secretariat?