Evidence of meeting #114 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was funding.
A video is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Arnold Viersen Conservative Peace River—Westlock, AB
It still shows up in your departmental plans. Are there any efforts to do something differently?
Dr. Tom Wong Chief Medical Officer of Public Health, First Nations and Inuit Health Branch, Department of Indigenous Services
I will make my remarks first and then turn it over to Nelson Barbosa, my colleague, who's responsible for housing funding, repairs and remediation for mould.
Mould from a health standpoint is a major concern.
Conservative
Arnold Viersen Conservative Peace River—Westlock, AB
I understand that, but I'm going to move on from that.
I'd like to go back to the Auditor General to ask if she could explain a little bit around.... Maybe I'm misunderstanding the change. Could she perhaps clarify? Did she understand that the program had been replaced by something else?
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General
Our understanding when we were doing the audit was that no one could explain to us why the mould strategy wasn't being used anymore and that access to funding to deal with mould was part of a bigger, broader repairs program that exists there.
This is an issue that my office raised in 2003, and we recommended the creation of the strategy. Strategy or no strategy, I think it comes back to understanding the magnitude of the mould issue, so that you understand the dollars needed and the support needed by communities in order to address it. Whether you don't have a strategy or you have something else, you still need to understand the magnitude, and I think it goes back to first not having the data to know the extent of the problem and then not having a plan, by whatever name you want to call it, to try to fund it and address it going forward.
Conservative
Arnold Viersen Conservative Peace River—Westlock, AB
Okay.
How many employees does ISC that have dedicated to housing?
Deputy Minister, Department of Indigenous Services
Let me get that data for you.
Director General, Regional Operations, Department of Indigenous Services
We can provide the committee with more specific numbers, but I can say that in budget 2022 Indigenous Services Canada received $2.4 billion for programming related to housing remediation in first nations, and associated with that money was—
Conservative
Director General, Regional Operations, Department of Indigenous Services
I do. With that money, it was 77 employees. The $2.4 billion equalled 77 employees.
Conservative
Arnold Viersen Conservative Peace River—Westlock, AB
Okay.
Do you know how long it takes to build the average housing unit through ISC?
Director General, Regional Operations, Department of Indigenous Services
It can vary greatly. Typically, these happen seasonally, in the summer season, with links into winter roads. Typically, that happens within a year.
Conservative
Arnold Viersen Conservative Peace River—Westlock, AB
Is that per unit? Does it take a whole year to produce one unit?
Director General, Regional Operations, Department of Indigenous Services
It varies greatly.
One unit is a measure of a geospatial home, but some houses are small, some are big, some take a year and some take longer. There are some that are prefab that happen immediately. Communities are using technology like 3-D printing, which makes it happen much faster. That is their prerogative.
Conservative
Arnold Viersen Conservative Peace River—Westlock, AB
What number does ISC use for the population growth of the folks you service?
Conservative
Arnold Viersen Conservative Peace River—Westlock, AB
What number for population growth are you using?
Director General, Regional Operations, Department of Indigenous Services
We use Statistics Canada data through the census, the most recent census data.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Thank you very much. That is the time.
Ms. Bradford, you have the floor for five minutes, please.
Liberal
Valerie Bradford Liberal Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to the witnesses today.
This question is for both ISC and CMHC.
How often do your staff go out to inspect these sites to see the conditions and how the progress is coming along?
Deputy Minister, Department of Indigenous Services
I would say that with our funding services officers who liaise quite daily with first nation communities, along with our regional housing managers and regional infrastructure staff, we're looking at a daily ongoing engagement. It is quite fluid, but that's very close.
Joanne Wilkinson Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Regional Operations Sector, Department of Indigenous Services
I could add that all of our contribution agreements that include this type of funding require final completion reports that are certified by a qualified inspector. We've been working with the First Nations National Building Officers Association to build that capacity, as well as to do training and those sorts of things.
Liberal
Valerie Bradford Liberal Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON
The AG's report identified that there was “[l]imited assurance of compliance with building code standards”, that they “lacked the necessary supporting documentation” and that “CMHC did not require proof of building code compliance for housing repair programs”. Why would that be?
Acting President and Chief Executive Officer, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation
Actually, all of our programs on reserve that were subject to the audit do require an inspection to be done. For new construction, you also have to take into account that the period of the audit was during a global pandemic, when travel was restricted, so a 90% achievement is a very good rate, in our opinion.
The other thing I would say is that first nation communities have no benefit in having non-standard or non-code-compliant repairs or new builds done.
I can pass you on to my colleague, who can give you additional information, if the chair allows.
Morley Linstead Director, Housing Solutions - Indigenous and the North, Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation
Thank you for the question.
Yes, for our programming, we have quite an extensive inspection process for all new builds and repairs, and the building inspectors that led to the 90% return rate on building code compliance for new construction are the same inspectors we use for inspections on repairs.
Our agreement with them requires that the repairs they are inspecting meet building code requirements. We have not, in a paper form, received that confirmation from them, but our contract with them requires that, so we do feel—and we will get that written confirmation going forward—that even though we didn't have that during the period of the auditor's report, we believe that all those repairs met building code standards.
Liberal
Valerie Bradford Liberal Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON
Going back to the mould problem, what are the underlying causes for mould? Why is it so prevalent? There must be an answer to that.