Public Accounts Committee on April 11th, 2024

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

This is to Ms. Wilkinson.

Why doesn't your minister, Minister Hajdu, have the professional courtesy to respond to members of Parliament, who are duly elected to represent a number of indigenous nations? Why do I have to plead and beg for a response? This is shameful, it is disgusting, and I hope you relay the message directly to her about how disappointed I am in the way that she conducts her ministry.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much, Mr. Brock.

Turning now to Ms. Shanahan, you have the floor for five minutes, please.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you very much, Chair, and perhaps we could get back to the study.

It's good to hear that all members here of all parties are in agreement that this is a very tragic situation, with decades of underfunding that have resulted in first nations being underserved in housing. I would hope to see my Conservative colleagues voting with us when we're allocating money to first nations housing.

This is for the CMHC.

One of the main objectives of the government.... There certainly are a number of programs dedicated to housing. Even though I am a former banker and pride myself in being knowledgeable about the different financing arrangements, it can be quite complicated and difficult to follow.

I would like to hear from the CMHC and then Indigenous Services about how first nations are able to access the numerous programs that are available for housing, and how you are working with the first nations to facilitate and increase the capacity of first nations communities to access the different programs.

Off the top, Kahnawake is a neighbour of my riding. It's not within my riding. If they had a housing project that they wanted to do, what would be the first step they would take?

[Michel Tremblay]

The national housing strategy does prioritize indigenous people and people living in the north as one of their priority populations. As of December 31, 2023, I'm happy to say that we've committed $6 billion of the $43 billion that has been committed under the national housing strategy to indigenous people and people living in the north.

On how we go about helping them navigate the various programs, it's actually my colleague Morley who heads the indigenous solutions team that is across Canada. They do meet with first nations and other indigenous groups to help them navigate the programming and also to help them with applications.

In terms of building capacity, we have an internship program, which is quite successful, that we fund every year. We've also helped stand up the First Nations Housing Professionals Association. They are able to build capacity of first nations as well, including in the area of mould remediation, which we were talking about earlier. We are doing what we can.

Morley, I don't know if you want to add anything.

[Morley Linstead]

I think you covered it very well.

We have a team of front-facing staff across the country who go into the communities and meet with the housing managers and/or whoever is managing the housing portfolio on a first nation reserve. We have great relationships. We help wherever we can, not only with respect to capacity building but also with filling out applications, processing applications and advocating for first nations and all those things.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Could you talk to me about the housing accelerator fund? Is that something that first nations communities have access to?

[Michel Tremblay]

There was a portion of the housing accelerator fund that was dedicated to rural and northern areas. We did have first nations actually apply successfully through the housing accelerator fund.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

To see it as successful, what would be the rate of uptake? Is it making a dent in facilitating the construction of housing on reserve?

[Michel Tremblay]

The program, as you know, recently went through the application process. As for its success, it's a little early, but we can get back to the committee in terms of success on first nations on reserve.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Back home, in the riding of Châteauguay—Lacolle, the Rapid Housing Initiative has been a success. It was in fact a partnership between a Châteauguay nonprofit organization and an agency in Kahnawake.

Are you expecting other projects or partnerships like this, especially in urban areas?

[Michel Tremblay]

The rapid housing initiative was one of the most successful programs in terms of building houses quickly or committing to building housing quickly. I think the take-up rate for indigenous people was around 40% of the total $4 billion funding, if I'm not mistaken.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

That is your time, I'm afraid.

In beginning our next round, Mr. Schmale, you have the floor for five minutes, please.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Thank you very much, Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses for being here.

I want to talk more along the lines of where our Bloc colleague was going, and that relates to outcomes. How are we measuring outcomes?

[Gina Wilson]

I'll let my colleague talk a little bit about what we have identified in our departmental performance reports for outcomes.

[Nelson Barbosa]

We measure outcomes in two ways. One was cited as part of the opening remarks in terms of houses built and renovated. That number across the two departments in front of you today eclipses 30,000.

The other way we measure progress is around overcrowding metrics and metrics related to household density. Those are indicators of progress.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

When you look at the population numbers, from what year are the stats that you are using?

[Nelson Barbosa]

Within Indigenous Services Canada, we've applied the 2021 census data.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Okay.

What policies are you using currently to empower indigenous communities to chart their own course, if you will?

[Gina Wilson]

I mentioned earlier that we invested $223 million in housing managers, but more work is still needed here. There was also additional funding provided for training certification and ensuring that those housing managers had the capacity to manage housing on reserve, technical capacity and expertise.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

We have had a number of reports over recent years that talk about the fact that spending is up in these departments but that outcomes are not necessarily growing with the increased funding.

First of all, why?

Second, what is the department doing to fix this, and at what point can we see an increase in results? We're talking about housing here.

[Gina Wilson]

The outcome for housing has been 34,000 houses built, but I get what you're saying. I understand the complexities in all of this.

I'll ask Nelson to reply.

[Nelson Barbosa]

It is an excellent question, and I think that 30,000 homes renovated or built is certainly a marker of success, but there is work to do.

I'll point to some other success areas, and I'll reference that since 2016, first nations themselves reported an average community well-being score of 58, and in 2022 that average rose. In 2016, first nations reported an average community well-being housing score as 68, and in 2021 that rose.

In 2016 there were 17 first nations that reported community well-being scores less than 40, and in 2021 that number is two.

Additionally, the number of homes self-reported by first nations grew by 4%, and the number of adequate homes grew by 6%, so we're seeing progress. I think there is a way to go.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

To the Auditor General, who has had a few reports on this basically outlining the same concerns and the same problems, are you seeing that same level of attention to this problem, and do you agree with the assessment?

[Karen Hogan]

Are you talking about closing the gap?

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

Yes, and do you agree with the assessment you just heard?