Public Accounts Committee on April 11th, 2024

[Karen Hogan]

The funding that has been spent has definitely contributed to building new homes. We have an exhibit that talks about the achievement of that. We highlight that, in the report when they were looking at the gap, it was about 55,000 homes, I believe, that needed to be built. Here we are, five years later, almost six, and 80% of that is still remaining. It means that 20% was built, so there is definitely progress. My biggest concern is that this is a large gap and it's a lot of money, so you should have a plan to know how to fund that investment. It can't all be funded on day one, so there needs to be a plan to know how to fund that investment.

There will be limited funding every year, and that's why looking at equitable allocation and increasing access to funding for some communities that don't already have it is one of our recommendations. Really going after those further behind and trying to bring them forward first is the spirit of many of the recommendations that we have here, but it starts with understanding the whole quantum of the issue and then having a plan to fund it going forward.

I do want to acknowledge that progress has been made, but will this gap be closed by 2030? In my view, it is unlikely, given the few years left and that 80% of the needs are still largely unmet.

[Jamie Schmale, Conservative, Haliburton—Kawartha Lakes—Brock, ON]

We've talked about this gap that probably won't be closed. That new approach was mentioned earlier. If we're just relying on program funding, then it doesn't seem to be actually getting the outcomes I think all of us want.

Where do you see that the change needs to be made? How new an approach do you think is necessary? Are we looking at a total overhaul in thinking? Are we talking about more capacity for first nations themselves to be able to monetize that type of thing and reach the goals they need to achieve for their people?

[Karen Hogan]

It's all of the above.

A fundamental shift means thinking about things in a different way. In my view, if we continue to say that we have a number of housing programs for these individuals over here, and we have a number of safe drinking water programs for those people over there, that is the siloed approach that, decades later, we're seeing is not working effectively for communities overall.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Collins, thank you for joining us today. You have the floor for five minutes, please.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thanks for having me, Mr. Chair.

Welcome to our witnesses.

Mr. Tremblay, a theme that was developed in the Auditor General's report was almost one of haves and have-nots. In the smaller communities, I think we're at a disadvantage in terms of accessing funding, either through the department or through your organization, for various reasons highlighted in the report.

I've always found that many of CMHC's programs are urban-centric. I come from a large municipality. I served on our non-profit housing board. We have a team of lawyers, planners and others who help us with applications that you put in place. Small, rural, northern, remote and, in this instance, indigenous communities don't have those resources, so many choose not to apply. Can I ask what your organization is doing to ensure resources for small communities?

I think the report states that application-based proposals penalize those without resources. What is your organization doing to change that narrative and to ensure that the smallest of communities receive their share of the resources from all of those who are in attendance here today? How are you changing things in your workplace to ensure that they have equal access to those resources?

[Michel Tremblay]

As I mentioned, we have a dedicated team across the country that works with first nations on indigenous housing, including in remote areas and in the north. The national housing strategy also has $1.6 billion that's dedicated to indigenous people and people in the north. Mr. Linstead's team works around the country and helps them with applications.

We have also tried to build capacity as we have been doing this. If a first nation is doing their first application, Mr. Linstead's team can help them. Once they've gone through an application for a program, they will then have better capacity to apply further.

A lot of our programs are available across the country; obviously, the national housing strategy covers the whole continuum and country. Even though a lot of these programs are application-based, thanks to the work of Morley's team, we've been able to get a lot of funding through these programs. The number is around 12% to 13% of the overall NHS funding that has been committed to date.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thank you.

Something that I didn't see in the report was the cost of providing housing. There are references there that talk about the challenges indigenous communities face in rural and remote communities in terms of transportation and servicing issues. I think they're referred to as “essential services” in the Auditor General's report.

Your organization is driving innovation in the housing sector. You have an innovation fund that seeks to accomplish that. The rapid housing fund has poured tens of millions of dollars into modular housing. Every time that happens, it drives innovation in that sector.

What is your organization doing to assist indigenous communities with lowering the cost of housing, which, in some instances, can be almost double what we're paying in urban areas?

[Michel Tremblay]

I have mentioned a lot of the initiatives we have put in place to help with that. We have mentioned modular and 3-D housing as a very good step towards lowering the costs. You've mentioned some of the barriers that exist. Another one is that access is very seasonal, which becomes an issue for the indigenous people who live up north or in more rural areas.

We are working, as you said, with the affordable housing initiative and modular housing. We're looking at different ways to help communities build housing faster and cheaper.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thank you.

Ms. Wilson, with infrastructure and essential services, it's oftentimes a responsibility shared among three levels of government, including first nations governments, in terms of the resources they have to contribute to upgrade the same.

Provincially, is there a plan with our provincial partners when it comes to water, waste-water services and building new roads to get to these rural and remote communities? Climate change has played a role in terms of creating barriers, whether it's low water levels that don't allow the shipment of goods or whether it's ice roads that are no longer there during the winter season.

Are provincial partners contributing? What's the plan in terms of addressing financial issues with those partners when currently they may not be at the table?

[Gina Wilson]

That's a great question.

They are engaged to varying extents, certainly, when it comes to roads and winter roads. We have many conversations with our partners, but maybe I'll check with Joanne to see if there's anything in particular.

[Joanne Wilkinson]

Maybe I could provide a couple of examples.

In New Brunswick, the Tobique First Nation has an agreement with the provincial government for a $22-million investment. Again, similar to the example I mentioned earlier in Alberta, we supplemented that, particularly around servicing and engineering and those types of things. The intent there is to build 50 homes with that partnership approach.

As the deputy said, there's no program to which people apply. These are ongoing discussions and dialogues between nations with a nation-to-nation and government-to-government relationship.

[Chad Collins, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

My last question would be around the whole issue relating to those small communities that don't have capacity right now to not just manage but to apply for the programs that Mr. Tremblay talked about.

Are there small communities that have raised those issues in terms of even being provided the resources that you've highlighted today that are available to them? Some may say that they're not capable because they just don't have the population to manage it.

What is the plan? Is it a regional approach that will be taken by first nations, much like regional governments we see in rural areas that take a collective control over some of the issues you're dealing with?

[Gina Wilson]

It's a very regionally based approach.

When it comes to things like filling out applications, there are no applications from six out of 10 provinces in our sphere. It's people working with people and committees. Regional funding formulas and regional decisions are made in partnership with first nations. That's just how it works at the local level.

However, there are reports and things that we can probably streamline and do better when it comes to some of the paperwork.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

We’re moving on to you, Ms. Sinclair‑Desgagné. I will give you three minutes to speak instead of two and a half, because I made a little mistake during the Conservatives’ turn and I gave a little bit more time to the Liberals.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

We heard several times today that a radical change is needed, a paradigm change. Those are great words. I even had the pleasure of hearing that you agreed with them, Ms. Wilson. After the report's release, I imagine that your meeting with the minister must have been rocky, to say the least. Indeed, if such a paradigm change is needed, it means that radical change has to happen.

Briefly, could you tell us how that meeting with the minister went?

[Gina Wilson]

She felt the same way I did. We are carrying out consultations on infrastructure modernization. I can ask Mr. Barbosa to explain it quickly.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Please be very quick. I have a lot of follow‑up questions.

[Nelson Barbosa]

Over the last year, we've engaged first nations rights holders specifically on these questions of why so many programs, how to modernize, how to monetize and how to bring more modern municipal practices to the first nation environment.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

On a practical level, when it comes to modern practices, do you talk about supporting capacity building and ceasing to send funding that ultimately serves no purpose and produces no results?

[Nelson Barbosa]

Capacity is certainly part of that conversation, but, ultimately it comes down to choice.

We have many programs. We have a housing program, but we have a water program and a school program. Sometimes those don't align with the needs of the community, so the community should be empowered to choose where those investments go based on the investments that are available.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Communities will finally have some freedom of choice, so they can decide where the money goes. Just that would be a good start. We agree on that approach, but will it be enough? That's the next question.

Thank you, Mr. Barbosa.

This follows up on my first question about the minister's reaction. We are going to see some restructuring. Does that mean we should expect major changes to be included in next week's budget? After all, the situation is desperate and action is urgently needed to completely revamp the thinking around the problem and the response to it.

[Nelson Barbosa]

The question of appropriations is a parliamentary question, but I would say we were happy to work with the Assembly of First Nations in quantifying the infrastructure gap. We engaged first nations for over a year to understand what the delta was in infrastructure and quantify that gap, and we worked with the AFN to cite the report that was published on April 9.

We know the gap is great. We have programs that we will fund at the highest level for housing this year, and we will fund water at the highest level—

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

All right. That doesn't exactly answer my question. I asked about a very practical matter.

In the budget that's unveiled next week, will we finally see major changes to the way the federal government funds the various programs? Conversely, is it going to take another few years or perhaps another report before those changes are made?

[Nelson Barbosa]

Yes, we're hopeful for positive budget outcomes on April 16. We want to continue to work with first nations to bring that modern practice into place, including the monetization of investment.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Pardon me. You just said you were hopeful, but this isn't at all about hope. You are the ones who lay out your requirements for the Department of Finance. There is something wrong if the deputy minister with us today can't say that the budget will indeed contain major changes, that certain programs will finally undergo changes and that the government will address the appalling findings in report after report.