Evidence of meeting #114 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was funding.
A video is available from Parliament.
Director General, Regional Operations, Department of Indigenous Services
I would agree that the budget appropriation cycle is critical in closing the infrastructure gap. Like you, we eagerly await the results of April 16.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Thank you.
Next up, we'll have Mr. Desjarlais. You have three minutes.
I looked left when I should have looked right when Mr. Schmale was speaking. He went over slightly, so I gave Mr. Collins more time, and I did the same for the Bloc, so you have three minutes.
NDP
Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
To the Auditor General, in light of our discussion here today, you've heard many of our questions and you've heard our concerns. In your own experience as our Auditor General, you've cited many times—not just in your own words, but in the words of previous other Auditors General—the lengthiness of this crisis. I'm talking about the length of time.
In previous testimony, you've said this is going to impact an entire generation. As a matter of fact, it has.
Could you comment on what you've heard? Are you hopeful, based on what you've heard—not just in response to your recommendations, but also here today—that the gap will be closed by 2030?
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General
I stand by our comments in our report. I believe it's unlikely that the gap will be closed by 2030 unless something drastically different is done. We have almost seven years to go.
Something different really needs to happen. It starts with understanding the gap and then having a plan to move forward and do that with communities.
I would be happy to come back one day and say, “All of these recommendations weren't acted on because there was something completely different, and here's what's happening now,” versus just continuing to say there's been little progress made on our recommendations.
NDP
Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB
You've reviewed many programs and you often see failures. When it comes to program failures, you sometimes see that there are changes in that work. We've seen multiple decades now of this ministry in particular saying it's going to do the right thing, and then it doesn't.
As a matter of fact, in your report you suggest that not only will it not reach the target by 2030 but that it's actually getting worse. We see from the Assembly of First Nations report, for example, that the number it co-developed with the ministry in 2018—the number they came up with—is now outdated because of inaction. Now that number's well over $520 billion in terms of an infrastructure gap.
My concern, Canadians' concern and the concern of indigenous people across the country is about Indigenous Services Canada, which is being asked to transfer the responsibilities to indigenous people while attempting to hit these really incredible targets, such as closing the infrastructure gap by 2030.
How can it make such bold claims when it's saying it's someone else's problem? Is it disjointed? Do you see a silo, in your words?
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General
I believe you're highlighting part of my concern that I mentioned in my opening remarks about the partial agreement with one of our recommendations.
As I reflected on this work and on the work of my predecessors, there has very little progress over 20 years in this area. That is why I am completely discouraged and why I believe we made recommendations to try to improve things within the current confines of policies and practices. However, something fundamentally different is needed to bring about change.
NDP
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General
That's a difficult question to answer.
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General
There are so many individual programs that are not doing well—
Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General
—and then there are so many that are doing well, so it's a tough question to answer.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
I will rescue the Auditor General from ranking her greatest hits.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
If she's inclined to think about it, she can get back to us on that.
I'll turn now to Mr. Nater. You have the floor for five minutes, please.
Conservative
John Nater Conservative Perth—Wellington, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I want to open with a comment that is mainly directed to the CMHC. I don't want to sound glib, but “do better”. That's my comment to the CMHC right now, specifically on first nations housing and the fact that you're using data from two decades ago. Come on: Do better.
I know the Liberals brought up the housing accelerator fund, and I'll go broader to that, beyond first nations housing. Rural communities and small-town communities did not benefit from the housing accelerator fund. The fact that the Township of Mapleton, a rural community in my riding, was lumped in as a large urban municipality.... I mean, come on. It's ridiculous. Not a single rural small town in Perth—Wellington and in many rural communities benefited from the housing accelerator fund. I'll just say that the program is failing, and I think, unfortunately, that the CMHC is to blame, in partnership with the Liberal government.
With regard to the matter at hand, I want to begin with Ms. Wilson.
Can you confirm for us whether you've done any investigation as to whether any employees in your department are also contractors with other government departments?
Deputy Minister, Department of Indigenous Services
We are doing that investigation as we speak. Yes, it's under way.
Conservative
Deputy Minister, Department of Indigenous Services
I want to say that it will be within the next month, but I'd have to double-check and get back to you with what the deadline is. It's the government-wide deadline.
Conservative
John Nater Conservative Perth—Wellington, ON
Will you provide those results specifically to our committee when it's completed?
Conservative
John Nater Conservative Perth—Wellington, ON
The alternative.... How many contractors within your department are also employees of other government departments?
Conservative
John Nater Conservative Perth—Wellington, ON
I appreciate that.
Let's go back to the mould strategy, and this has been brought up before. I want some precision on this.
When did Indigenous Services Canada make the conscious decision to stop following the 2008 mould strategy?
Deputy Minister, Department of Indigenous Services
I'm going to take a guess here, because this was before my time, but I'll look at my colleagues and I'll look at Dr. Wong.
It was not a decision made on a day; it was a gradual inclination by first nations wanting to reduce the silos of various program entities and wanting more flexible funding. Gradually there was a move towards providing that flexibility and ensuring that mould was an expense that was completely available for funding within the programming that we have.