Public Accounts Committee on March 31st, 2022

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you, Mr. Tremblay.

I'm sure that we'll come back to this topic.

I'll now give the floor to Ms. Bradford for five minutes.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Auditor General, for this very important work and for being here with us today in order to speak to it. Thank you to all our witnesses.

Obviously, there are a number of items of concern in this report. One thing that stands out is that a lot of the problems result from these virtual inspections. All of us can appreciate that cameras do lie, contrary to popular belief. The Internet is full of all kinds of images that misconstrue things.

As I understand, it was up to the employers to provide your inspectors with photos that would demonstrate that they were meeting the requirements, yet we find that in 93% of the cases, there were no photos of the general accommodation. In 60% of the cases, there were no photographs of the isolation spaces.

I would like to know why it was decided to do virtual inspections. Is that going to happen this year as well, given that there are a lot of obvious shortcomings with this particular process?

[Jean-François Tremblay]

I will start, and then ask Mary to talk about this year.

We followed the public health measures, so we didn't send people when there was a risk from a pandemic perspective. We also have to understand that bringing people into an organization that is quarantined is not a good way either. We could have been at risk of contamination on our side.

The decision to proceed with virtual was not because we decided that we prefer virtual. It's because we needed to respond to the context of the pandemic and the fact that it was in the middle of waves. Even in 2021, for example, if you think about February to April, we were back in a big wave in terms of the pandemic, with record hospitalizations in April.

I may turn to Mary for what we're doing this year.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Would it not have been possible to physically inspect these accommodations with the workers not present and maybe do interviews outside with the workers safely distanced?

I'm thinking that during the pandemic, all kinds of workers, like health care workers and grocery store workers, were still providing face-to-face service. I feel that you should have been able to inspect these facilities safely in person.

My concern is now.... When will these temporary foreign workers be arriving? I would think very soon. Is that correct?

[Jean-François Tremblay]

Some are already in Canada. There's an annual cycle of temporary foreign workers, as you know.

To your questions on this issue, you have to remember that in 2020, when the pandemic arrived, it arrived quickly. Having the authority to go inspect for quarantine.... This program was not a health program. It was not built to do inspections for quarantine. While developing that, people were coming in, so there was no luxury of thinking in advance whether it was better to do it like that. It was reacting to a crisis and trying to manage it the best we could.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

I understand that. In 2020, that was the thing, but then in 2021, you were still doing the virtual inspections, even though they clearly didn't work well in 2020. They did not protect the workers, and people died.

Now I'm concerned that's going to be the case this year. My big concern is that COVID-19, as we all know, is in our communities and it's widespread. It's much more contagious. We're bringing these workers in at a time when a lot of it is in the community, and I'm very concerned.

Maybe it would be helpful if someone could describe for us what these bunkies are like, so we know what we're bringing people into and how we can protect them safely. How many people are in a typical dwelling? How close together are they? Is there indoor plumbing?

I'm not sure who can answer that for me.

[Jean-François Tremblay]

I can answer.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I'll need a short response, Mr. Tremblay.

[Jean-François Tremblay]

Mary, you'll be briefer than me. Go ahead.

[Mary Crescenzi]

Thank you.

I'll be quick. The inspectors are not allowed to go on site until the workers have arrived in Canada. That is part of the authorities and the ways in which we can do this work.

The pre-inspection prior to arrival is conducted at the provincial jurisdictional level and is called a housing inspection report. They need to demonstrate that they have a pass on the housing inspection report by provincial authority even before they apply for a labour market impact assessment, in order for the employer to receive an approval to have temporary foreign workers come into Canada.

That housing inspection report looks at all of those things that you're speaking about—the bunkers, water, access to functioning kitchens and so on. We must rely on our provincial authorities, and whom they delegate to, to demonstrate meeting those expectations.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you.

Ms. Sinclair‑Desgagné, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to follow up with a question that I'm sure Mr. Tremblay can answer.

How does the hierarchy work at ESDC? Several things were discussed earlier, such as the internal audit and the need to train inspectors. I understand all this. However, does anyone check the work of the inspectors?

[Jean-François Tremblay]

As I said earlier, a committee and an organization help and support the inspectors. The work done by the inspectors is certainly checked.

As I pointed out, in this case, the measures were developed as people were implementing them.

After hearing the Auditor General's comments, we set up our own internal audit service. This service is responsible for continuing to conduct audits in the department. This enabled us to follow up and to ensure that the measures were being implemented and that they were working.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Thank you, but that wasn't exactly my point. I was wondering about how far these people go with their checks.

According to the inspectors' findings in their reports, in 2020, quarantine requirements were met 99.6% of the time. In 2021, the figure was 100%. Didn't that sound fishy to anyone? Wasn't that enough to suggest that something was wrong?

[Jean-François Tremblay]

As I said earlier, we kept trying to improve things throughout 2020. After that, in 2021, we took many steps. We're starting to see results. Things don't change in a day. We were in a crisis. Granted, things could have gone better. Everyone agrees on that.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Thank you.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

You say that things improved between 2020 and 2021. I see that, in 2020, 73% of quarantine inspections had issues, meaning that they were incomplete or of poor quality. In 2021, the figure was 88%. I don't see an improvement, but a decline.

[Jean-François Tremblay]

The year 2021 continued until December. Starting in July 2021, the results started to get better and better.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

Next we have Mr. Desjarlais.

You have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to first thank my colleagues from across this committee for ensuring that we have a serious and I think well-questioned discussion about the seriousness of this. It's just so troubling. In my opinion, this is truly one of the greatest failures of our present time in this country—that we let folks die. We take this position on the international stage as if we want to protect folks, and then we send back bodies. That's unacceptable. I don't want to see this committee face this issue again. This report, this work, I encourage the ministry to take seriously.

I want to read a few facts that are concerning, in a vein similar to the one followed by my colleague Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné. They're related to the red flags that I think the ministry should certainly have been aware of.

These come from exhibit 13.6, and are as follows:

In a 2020 inspection, quarantine accommodations for 26 temporary foreign workers were being assessed. The only evidence collected to demonstrate that these 26 workers could physically distance as required was 2 photos of a table and photos of 2 bedrooms that showed the sleeping arrangements for only a small number of workers.

This was supposed to be on behalf of 26.

No follow-up occurred, and the employer was found compliant.

Why?

In a 2020 inspection, quarantine accommodations for 3 temporary foreign workers were being assessed. The photos obtained from the employer clearly demonstrated that the distance between workers’ beds in their shared bedroom was far less than the required 2 metres. No follow‑up occurred, and the employer was found compliant.

In a 2021 inspection that had been inactive for more than 2 months at the time of our review, quarantine accommodations for 10 workers were being assessed. Only 1 photo of 1 bedroom was obtained from the employer. Information on the number of accommodations being used to quarantine these workers and how these accommodations allowed for required physical distancing was not collected.

Why are these employers getting compliancy approvals when it's very clear...especially after my colleague Valerie Bradford's comments related to these conditions and the issues related to photos? Why were they found compliant?

[Jean-François Tremblay]

First, I want to really thank you for these questions. We share your concerns. There's nothing more important than people's lives. People who come to Canada expect to be treated like other Canadians and other workers, and should be treated that way. The failure that happened with this program is something that clearly needs to be addressed. I can tell you that it is a preoccupation for all the people who work on this program inside the department.

Now I will turn to Mary, who may want to give you more specifics about what happened in 2020.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I would ask you to be very brief, please.

[Mary Crescenzi]

Of course. I'll concentrate on the supplemental training that we have already put in place to address those pieces.

These are examples that we do not wish to replicate, and we're making every effort not to do so—

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

I'm sorry. The question was about why they were approved as compliant.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I'm actually going to have to cut it there. We're going to get back to you in another round, I'm afraid.

Mr. Epp, you have the floor for five minutes.