Evidence of meeting #129 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was contracts.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Nelson Barbosa  Director General, Regional Operations, Department of Indigenous Services
Gina Wilson  Deputy Minister, Department of Indigenous Services
Stefanie Beck  Deputy Minister, Department of National Defence
Troy Crosby  Assistant Deputy Minister, Materiel Group, Department of National Defence

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

I now call this meeting to order.

Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to meeting number 129 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Public Accounts.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the Standing Orders. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application.

I'd like to ask all members and other in-person participants to consult the cards on the table for guidelines to prevent audio feedback incidents.

As a reminder to those using the earpiece, keep the earpiece away from the microphones at all times. When you're not using your earpiece, please place it face down on the sticker on the table for this purpose. It's usually to your right, but occasionally the sticker is on the left.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(g), the committee is resuming its consideration of the 2024 report 2 of the Auditor General of Canada, “Housing in First Nations Communities”, referred to the committee on Tuesday, March 19, 2024.

I'd now like to welcome our witnesses.

We have with us the Honourable Patty Hajdu, PC, MP and Minister of Indigenous Services. It's nice to see you again, Minister.

We also have with us several officials from the Department of Indigenous Services: Gina Wilson, deputy minister; Paula Hadden-Jokiel, assistant deputy minister; Tom Wong, chief medical officer, chief science officer and director general; and Nelson Barbosa, director general, regional operations.

Minister, you will have five minutes for your opening remarks, after which we'll proceed to our round of questioning.

It's over to you, please.

3:30 p.m.

Thunder Bay—Superior North Ontario

Liberal

Patty Hajdu LiberalMinister of Indigenous Services

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much, everyone, for the opportunity to come here with my officials to talk about what I think is a very important conversation, which is housing on first nations communities.

I'd first like to thank the Algonquin Anishinabe for allowing us to gather on this traditional and unceded territory.

This report of the Auditor General's, I think, underscores the importance of continuing to work with first nations in addressing the socio-economic gaps. This issue of housing, as you would know, Mr. Chair, isn't a recent issue. It's the product of decades of underfunding and a colonial system designed to exclude indigenous peoples from lands and from the economy. Therefore, it does take time to rectify and create the systemic changes that are needed to ensure that every first nations person has a safe place to rest their head, that communities have the autonomy they need to proceed in ways that make sense to them, and that their houses are able to host children and have families reach their full potential.

As we continue this work together to repair the deep harms of ongoing colonialism and to implement the Auditor General's recommendations, I'd like to make the point very clear that the issues pointed out in the report can be resolved only through the work of true partnership with indigenous people and the full self-determination of first nations. These are things that the federal government for a very long time has actually worked to undermine. That's why this government has been working hand in hand with first nations to close the housing gap referenced in the Auditor General's report, which the Assembly of First Nations estimated at $44 billion in 2021.

I thank the AFN for its important work in quantifying the gap and providing us with a starting point. We've used this gap analysis to inform our path forward. Together with the AFN, the Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation and first nations across Canada, we've co-developed the national first nations housing and related infrastructure strategy, which provides us with a path forward to transferring the control and management of housing to first nations.

I see the job of the Indigenous Services minister and the Government of Canada as one that makes sure that communities have the support they need to do the work outlined in this strategy. I can say that last year, Indigenous Services Canada spent a historic amount on infrastructure. In fact, it was the most the department had ever spent, and we're on track to spend even more. Budget 2024 recently proposed $426 million over five years for first nations housing and related infrastructure on reserve, starting this year, on top of the amounts that are already allocated.

The work that we're undertaking is not just about numbers and increased investments. It's about the capacity building to support self-determination and continued work to transfer the care and control of housing to first nations, because, as I've said, they know best how to meet their housing needs.

For example, since 2020, Indigenous Services Canada has provided over $3 million to the First Nations Housing Professionals Association. This money is training community members on project management, construction planning, tenant relations, and renovation and repair coordination. They've certified 48 housing professionals. There are an additional 151 people in training. This will build housing capacity in first nations communities across the country.

Another example is in my own hometown of Thunder Bay, where Indigenous Services Canada supports the indigenous skilled trades training program in its partnership with Hammarskjold High School, where students learn construction skills and build tiny homes that are then donated to Matawa First Nations.

I had an opportunity to visit Hammarskjold and meet with some of the students involved in that project. In fact, one of those students is now on my youth council. It's truly an inspirational project. This program not only helps students build new skills but also connects them to a career in the skilled trades, which is something that, as many of us know from other committees and work, we desperately need.

We're also supporting the transfer of housing and infrastructure services at a pace that is set by first nations-led organizations. For example, the Confederacy of Mainland Mi'kmaq signed a framework agreement with Indigenous Services Canada in October 2023 to assume control of the design, management, provision and delivery of their housing and infrastructure programs.

I believe, Mr. Chair, that this is the path we need to maintain. In the spirit of reconciliation, the time has passed when the Government of Canada tells first nations what to do. Rather, it works with first nations communities not only to build homes, but to build the capacity and transfer services to help communities move on to other economic development opportunities that can meet the needs of their growing populations.

Thank you for having me today, Mr. Chair.

I'm very happy to take your questions.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

Thank you very much, Minister.

We will begin our first round. The first four members will have six minutes each.

Mr. Melillo, you have the floor for six minutes, please.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

Eric Melillo Conservative Kenora, ON

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Minister, I want to thank you for being here. I know that you've made yourself available for a number of committee discussions in recent weeks, at various committees. I do sincerely appreciate your making that time.

I had the opportunity to question you about this report earlier this year, Minister. I asked if you accepted the report, and your response was that you accept all the recommendations. I do think that's a good thing; however, there is a difference between accepting the recommendations and accepting the report in its entirety. Of course, the report highlights that your government has no plan to reach its housing goals and that the state of housing on first nations has not improved since 2015.

I'd like to offer you the opportunity to answer again and to confirm whether or not you accept the entirety of this report as an accurate representation of the state of first nations housing.

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

Patty Hajdu Liberal Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON

We do accept the report. In fact, although we continue to speak with the Auditor General about, for example, our current allocation methodologies and exploring changes with communities, we agree that the situation for first nations in regard to housing needs to change. We think the Auditor General has given us valuable advice.

Certainly, I am happy to turn to Mr. Barbosa if he wants to add anything about his conversations with the Auditor General.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

Eric Melillo Conservative Kenora, ON

I apologize, Mr. Barbosa. I have limited time, and I want to ask another question.

You did answer my question adequately, Minister. You said that you accept the recommendations and agree that things need to change. Unfortunately, it's been your government that has had the power to make that change for the last nine years. Of course, as the Minister of Indigenous Services, the buck stops with you currently.

Earlier this week I had the opportunity to ask Chief Lance Haymond about what this report means in reality for the first nations he works with. He noted that CMHC is going to build 30 units for 43 communities in Quebec this fiscal year. I believe that's less than three-quarters of a unit per community.

Would you agree, Minister, that this is unacceptable?

3:35 p.m.

Liberal

Patty Hajdu Liberal Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON

I'm glad you mentioned Chief Haymond. It was great to have him at our economic round table just the other day, the one that was hosted by the Bank of Canada. In fact, as you know, he is also working with an organization called Yänonhchia'. Our department is working closely with Chief Haymond on how to accelerate that work around home ownership.

I will say that I think the context of Mr. Haymond's—

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Eric Melillo Conservative Kenora, ON

Would you agree that the level is unacceptable?

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Patty Hajdu Liberal Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON

I'm sorry, Mr. Chair. Do I have the floor?

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Eric Melillo Conservative Kenora, ON

I just want to clarify, Minister.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Patty Hajdu Liberal Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON

Mr. Chair, do I have the floor?

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

I've stopped the clock.

Minister, there is some give-and-take here on the floor. This is not like question period, where you're assigned a slot. The time belongs to the members. Previously, you heard Mr. Melillo, after you answered the question, want to move on. He did that. He is entitled to interrupt, if he does so politely, and I would ask that you respect that. The time is the member's, not the witness's.

Mr. Melillo, you have the floor.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Eric Melillo Conservative Kenora, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

With respect to the minister, I believe I asked a pretty straightforward question about whether or not she believes 30 units for 43 communities is acceptable. I'd like to give her the opportunity to respond.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Patty Hajdu Liberal Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON

I would say that the CMHC is not the only partner in supporting first nations housing.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Eric Melillo Conservative Kenora, ON

Again, though, as a direct question, do you believe that is an acceptable level of housing or not?

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Patty Hajdu Liberal Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON

I can't speak to the CMHC manner of apportioning support and funding. That is not the portfolio I hold. What I can say is that every department that has a responsibility for housing is part of the solution to closing the gap.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Eric Melillo Conservative Kenora, ON

Okay. Thank you, Minister. I'll move on.

The Auditor General also finds in the report that there were not adequate assurances that homes built on first nations were meeting applicable building code standards in the jurisdiction that the first nation is in. I think that's a very important aspect of this. It's one thing to have houses, but they have to be adequate. They have to be safe. A failure to comply with building codes puts first nations lives at risk.

Minister, again, do you believe this is acceptable? Why have you allowed this to happen under your watch?

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Patty Hajdu Liberal Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON

I will say that all federally funded housing on reserve must meet or beat the national building code and must demonstrate compliance as a condition for that funding, but I will also say that I am encouraged by your line of questioning, that you will support any additional investments and not vote against them again.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Eric Melillo Conservative Kenora, ON

I just want to clarify on that. Minister, you just said that all the federally funded housing must meet the applicable building codes, but the Auditor General has found that this is not the case. Why isn't that happening?

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Patty Hajdu Liberal Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON

Federally funded housing must meet or beat the national building code. I would hope that you understand that—

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Eric Melillo Conservative Kenora, ON

It's not happening, though.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Patty Hajdu Liberal Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON

—in order to meet the national building code, quality materials must be used and first nations must have the supports they need to maintain those buildings and keep them up to code.

I would look forward to your vote in favour of any additional spending in first nations housing.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Eric Melillo Conservative Kenora, ON

I understand all that, but, Minister, it's not happening. Why?

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Patty Hajdu Liberal Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON

I will say again that funding dedicated to first nations housing on first nations must meet or beat the code.

As I mentioned, we are working to support first nations to ensure that housing complies with the code. I look forward to your support in additional investments to make that possible.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Eric Melillo Conservative Kenora, ON

Thank you, Minister.

Obviously, we have this report before us on housing, which highlights that no progress has been made and there's no plan to address those housing gaps on first nations. We know that your government has dragged its feet on addressing first nations policing, which is another very important issue. The list goes on and on and on.

We've seen PBO reports showing that there's been more spending but not an equal level of ISC's ability to achieve its targets from that spending. However, with all of this failure, frankly, your department has handed out $3.6 million in bonuses to 94% of ISC's executive staff in the 2022-23 fiscal year and over $4 million to 98% of staff in the following fiscal year.

Why are you rewarding staff for this failure?