Public Accounts Committee on June 6th, 2024

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Thank you, Madam Minister.

Earlier this week, we heard the former Privy Council clerk and the former deputy minister of Indigenous Affairs tell us that they had such little faith in the current department, that its responsibility to build homes and fund this type of initiative should be withdrawn and instead granted to a new Crown corporation. What do you think about this suggestion?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Not having heard them, I don't want to speak directly to his comments. I'll answer what I think you're saying.

I would say that the work we're doing right now on infrastructure reform is the appropriate way, and that what the government should be doing is being a good treaty partner and other partner with other agreements to provide financial support, technical support and capacity-building support so that first nations have control over their own infrastructure.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Are you going to reform certain parts of the Indian Act, such as the ones I specifically mentioned? I spoke particularly about obstacles related to insurance as well as the title of the act. Can you confirm that there will be important changes to be made to the act during this session? Yes or no?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Well, I think you can rest assured that we will be working in all of the ways that we can to support the self-determination of first nations people at the speed and in the ways they want. It's why the legislation on first nations clean drinking water is so important, in fact, because that's part of that work: to support first nations with adequacy of funding that's co-developed and that provides a framework to better have control over the water that serves their systems.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Desjarlais, you have the floor for six minutes, please.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I thank the minister for being present with us today.

I'll take a different approach from what I think is often taken in these kinds of committee meetings and will try to paint a picture, I think, of what has been largely the story or the more modern narrative of our country.

Are you familiar with the traditional stories of many nations—including the area I come from—of shape-shifters?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I am, actually, yes.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

For shape-shifters, you may know that the nature of shape-shifters is the same, but how they appear is different. The things they do are different. How they operate is different. The nature of that being is the same—sometimes for malice and sometimes for benevolence—but the issue with shape-shifting is that it seeks to deceive. It seeks to use the better will of those who would see others and the goodwill they could offer as a benefit to manipulate.

Canada, our country, largely has been a shape-shifter in its approach to indigenous people. As a colonial state, in its 1867 establishment, it sought to bind Canada together with two bands of steel and largely with the force of the North-West Mounted Police, bringing many indigenous nations to their knees and using this objective force to force the creation of reserve systems, to forcefully reserve indigenous people.

It then would shape-shift into a settler colonial state. We notice in our parents' and grandparents' generation this attempt to take away the rights of indigenous people in the pursuit of a more noble idea. They thought they were doing something right with this idea of equalization: “What if we just enfranchise everyone? They will be equalized.”

We've also seen the paramount of that work manifested in former prime minister Trudeau's white paper. It was, of course, rejected, and by indigenous people from Alberta in particular. Harold Cardinal brought forward the red paper, which rejected this assimilationist approach to what the government's intent was, even though on one side they told Canadians that what they were doing was good, just like Sir John A. Macdonald said to Canadians when he built residential schools that this was for the good of indigenous people.

I find it very difficult to believe that the state today has changed in its objectives towards indigenous people. It's evidenced by these audits, and there will be no answers that you can give us today to build credibility towards that fact, but I hope in my time in our discussion today to at least have you realize and reflect on the very deeply disturbing nature of the mandate of your ministry and Crown-Indigenous Relations, and the overall principle from the Prime Minister's Office of how they're undertaking reconciliation.

The ideology that's being undertaken sounds great, just like we heard Sir John A. say that the residential schools would be great, and just like we saw Pierre Elliott Trudeau say that the destruction and elimination of indigenous rights was going to be great. We see today the attempt of this government to use the very legitimate claims of indigenous self-determination, the very real—very real—exclamation of their rights to their own lands, to their own people and to their own future, as an excuse in the delay that is being experienced when it comes to material enhancements in community.

You said in your speech that the number one process that will solve this problem takes partnership, and true partnership takes time. Unfortunately, there are people who suffer in the time it is undertaken. Could you comment on who suffers the most when time is often given to the benefit of the government? Who suffers the most?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I think we know who suffers the most. I think it's represented in the kinds of historic compensation that we've seen under our government. You know, there's been the $20 billion in child welfare compensation and the $8 billion for lack of access to clean water. The difference is this government is not only no longer hiding from the legacy of the colonialism of this country but is trying to form those better relationships.

Please be assured that I believe, as I was saying in response to MP Shanahan, that the time.... You're right. People suffer; children suffer and families suffer, but I think the time is changing. I think MP Shanahan's example is a good one of the kinds of efforts that can be put forward at all levels of government, including ours, which have to show that leadership and that equity.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

I appreciate that response.

It highlights my next point, which is second to the new kind of colonialism that the state is undertaking today. It's this reconciliation-first model that, on the front of it, especially if you go to the west coast—and I'm sure you have—with their tradition of the transformation mask.... You see a beautiful mask. It's welcoming in some ways, but then when the mask opens and the raven's mouth is bared, you see what it truly is. It's a shockingly disturbing sight.

It's a sight that would use, for example, compensation tools that were largely met because first nations had to force the government to court in order to get that compensation. It's truly disturbing. Many of the agreements—nearly all of the modern agreements your government has signed—are largely liability agreements. They seek to devolve the liability of the federal government for housing, water and the jurisdiction of families to indigenous people.

You mentioned the care and control. That's the part where the care and control piece is very difficult. In the court of law, where the government loses 99% of its court cases on liability issues, we see the government respond to those liability issues by presenting agreements that, on the face of it, look really good. However, deep down within them, if you read those agreements, it's a transfer of liability, care and control.

When you say care and control, you also mean liability. Is that correct?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

There's a lot packed into your statement. Overall, I can understand why first nations people are on a continuum of trust with this federal government, any government or really any space in this country.

I mean, let's talk briefly about racism in health care. Many first nations people don't trust health care systems that were intended to be for all, but which, in fact, indigenous people have been excluded from for decades—since their institution.

I will just say that we have over 150 ten-year agreements that were carefully created by those first nations and signed on behalf of the government and those first nations. We regularly support those first nations in the delivery of services.

I would ask that if you have particular first nations that are not happy with their 10-year agreements, have them reach out to my office.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Can I clarify the question, Chair? It'll be a yes or no.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Sure.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you.

The question is largely in regard to the government's attempt to devolve or seek “care and control” devolution, as it's often been known.

Does that include the liability for those services?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I'm going to turn to Nelson to speak about some of the mechanics of the 10-year agreements.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Answer just on the liability, please. Who is liable, now that these agreements are signed, for the failure to deliver service?

[Nelson Barbosa, Director General, Regional Operations, Department of Indigenous Services]

As we've mentioned in this committee before, on the pathway to transfer, there's been one transfer agreement signed. That's the Atlantic First Nations Water Authority, which we spoke to.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Who's liable now?

[Nelson Barbosa]

The organization, the Atlantic First Nations Water Authority, administers water services for its member communities, including the regulatory services and the administration—

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

I'm sorry, but you're not answering the question.

Who is now liable?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Mr. Desjarlais, we'll have to come back to you. You have another—

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

It's a yes or no question, Chair. Why are they avoiding it?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

We are well over the time. You will certainly have an opportunity to come back again.

Mr. Brock, you have the floor for five minutes, please.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Minister Hajdu, I proudly represent the riding of Brantford—Brant. I also represent the first nations community of Six Nations of the Grand River.

I'm sure the minister remembers that I have written to her on numerous occasions regarding the federal funding needed for the Gaweni:yo immersion school on Six Nations of the Grand River territory. Despite my previous correspondence and numerous follow-ups over the past three years, my office has not received any updates regarding the status of this necessary funding. The initial request for funding was literally eight and a half years ago. This delay has led to a significant increase in project costs, which has created challenges for the school's operations.

Last month, at this very committee, I raised the issue and a member of your department indicated that they would follow up.

Can you tell us today when we can expect to receive the urgently needed funding?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Thank you very much for the question. I do have a letter here dated March 30, 2023, that I sent to you, Mr. Brock. I assume you have that in your possession as well, so, in terms of not responding, I do want to put it on the record that, in fact, I did.

However, I will say that Indigenous Services Canada has supported the design brief for the school, and we're continuing to engage with the school across government departments to—