Public Accounts Committee on June 6th, 2024

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Absolutely.

I think Mr. Green is getting in the queue.

It's over to you, Mr. Nater.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

I'm going to read the motion. I will then say a quick word about some of the conversations we'd be open to regarding some options here.

The motion is as follows:

Given the Auditor General's Report 6, 2024, on SDTC, which revealed “significant lapses in governance and stewardship of public funds” and rampant conflicts of interest among SDTC board members, pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(g), the committee commence a study on this audit and invite the following witnesses to testify before the House adjourns for the summer:

(a) Francois-Philippe Champagne, Minister of Industry;

(b) Simon Kennedy, deputy minister of Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada;

(c) Francis Bilodeau, assistant deputy minister of Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada;

(d) Paul Boothe, acting chair of Sustainable Development Technology Canada;

(e) Ziyad Rahme, acting president of Sustainable Development Technology Canada;

(f) the anonymous whistleblower who appeared at the industry committee on this matter on December 11, 2023;

(g) Privy Council Secretariat members responsible for appointments;

(h) Mitch Davies, president of the National Research Council; and

(i) Konrad von Finckenstein, Ethics Commissioner;

and the committee book extra resources as required to accommodate these witness appearances.

That's the motion.

Chair, do you want me to pause for a second, before I offer a few quick comments?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I don't think so.

I'll check with the clerk to see if they've been able to send it out.

It's gone. Go ahead, Mr. Nater.

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

We had some informal conversations on this side. I haven't had a chance to run over and speak with Liberal counterparts.

If we come to an agreement on this, I think we could get this done relatively quickly, in terms of both the vote and the study, before we rise for the summer, particularly if there is agreement to host one of these two-hour meetings in our normal time slot. Then, with additional resources, we have a second one-hour meeting. I'm open to suggestions on the day. I know colleagues might have a suggestion about where those extra resources might be. If we come to an agreement on that, I think we could move forward on this fairly quickly.

I'm open to conversations about this. I think the priority would be to try to get this done with these priority witnesses before the House rises for the summer.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

I will continue to scan the room looking for people who want to speak on the motion.

Mr. Green, you have the floor.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Mr. Chair, this feels a little bit like Groundhog Day. I had a chance to sit in committee with some of the members that are on this committee earlier today, and this one kind of feels like The NeverEnding Story, Mr. Chair.

I guess you guys are into your sixth hour, or something like that, today. There seem to be a lot of hours that are piling up in this committee here.

The truth is that I'm keenly interested in asking some really tough questions and seeing exactly what transpired with SDTC. Those who have followed along in the ethics committee will know that to be the case. This is something we've delved into. I'm sure we're going to revisit it, as it tends to be the habit of our Conservative friends to bring these types of motions to all committees they sit at.

In fact, as I referenced, some of those members are here today.

Again, as is well documented in my time on the ethics committee, I am unwilling to support this kind of blank cheque for available resources as necessary. We have 25 members, and we're all very stretched on our committee work. I'm sitting in for somebody, so I'm not willing to commit their time, as they're travelling right now.

What I'd like to do, Mr. Chair, is amend the motion. I support it in principle. As New Democrats, we do support it.

I'd strike out the section on available resources and replace it with “during regularly scheduled meetings”.

That's the amendment I'd like to propose. It's very similar to amendments I've proposed at the ethics committee, which these members will be familiar with. It is in keeping with the way we're treating the rest of this session.

I'll say in closing, Mr. Williamson, that we are in the final weeks of this session. This has certainly been on the docket for quite some time, and it's definitely important. New Democrats believe it is important to provide accountability on this file. In terms of its urgency and warranting the ability to meet in extended hours when we're already stretched with our committee responsibilities, I'm not sure that is going to be wise for us.

Something that folks may or may not have taken into consideration is that there's a possibility, in these upcoming weeks, with a pending strike with CBSA, that our airports, travel and all types of things can go sideways over these next couple of weeks, given what's before us.

For that reason, I'm putting forward the amendment to keep it within your regularly scheduled meetings, so that we can deal with it in due course.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you.

Mr. Green, I'm going to comment briefly, because it's my habit to flag any issues or any kind of scheduling crunch.

I can say right off the top, to inform members, that we do have two open slots. What Mr. Green is proposing is something that the chair can certainly work with if this is the will of the committee.

Thank you, Mr. Green. I'd ask you to put your hand down unless you want to get in the queue again, in which case just keep it up.

I'll turn now to Madame Sinclair-Desgagné.

Ms. Sinclair‑Desgagné, you have the floor.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

You mentioned that there were two possibilities. I would like to know what dates you are talking about, since we are supposed to be hearing from RCMP representatives. You could also inform the committee of the dates when they will be available to appear before us.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

As I just said, the RCMP representatives are appearing on June 18. The open slots are on June 13 and June 20.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Perfect. Thank you for that information.

I also agree with the principle of the motion, and I will support Mr. Green's amendment.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Okay, thank you very much.

Ms. Khalid, you have the floor, please.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I appreciate that.

I really do appreciate Mr. Green's comments, because I think that we need to be a bit more cognizant of House resources and what our next couple of weeks look like.

I do think that we should not be coming back here on a matter that is important but not urgent, as Mr. Green said. Perhaps we can delve into what that amendment looks like in the main motion.

Mr. Chair, with your indulgence, I'm wondering if you can suspend for a bit, while we see what the amended motion looks like.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I'm going to read it. If there's a will, I will certainly suspend.

In the last line it says, “and the committee book extra resources as required to accommodate these witness appearances.”

I'm going to look to the clerk for a little guidance here.

I believe it's being changed to, basically, that the committee sits in its scheduled time.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Again, I'm seeking a little clarification, Chair.

If that's case and that's the wording of the motion as well as the amendment as presented, would that still give you the discretion to call meetings over the summer or unscheduled meetings on different matters?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I'll just state what the Standing Orders state. This committee can be recalled by members or by the chair. This motion has no bearing on that. My ability to call a meeting is one that is stated in the Standing Orders. This motion, as I read it, is about commencing a study between now and when we rise in the next two weeks. Based on what the amendment to the motion is, it is to sit on this study only when we are designated to sit. By my read, just for disclosure, there are two opportunities to do that, given that we have the RCMP confirmed for June 18.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Just on that then, Chair, would you be able to call a meeting on this same subject matter outside of what is being proposed in this amendment?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I might have to check with the clerk on that, because I'd like to be guided by....

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Would you like to suspend as you—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I think there's a willingness to talk. I'd like to suspend for a minute to two minutes. Is that okay?

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

That's fair, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

We'll suspend.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Members, please take your seats.

I'm just going to read the amendment to the motion, which was provided to me by the NDP, just so we are very clear: “and the committee accommodate these witnesses during regular committee meetings.”

Just for transparency, I take that as meaning that the meetings would be scheduled on June 13 and June 20.

Ms. Khalid, you had the floor when we last talked. You asked me a question. I'll give you the answer. It's pretty much what I said before. Whether you pass this motion or this motion is defeated, my ability to call a meeting in the summer is in the Standing Orders. I do retain that ability.

You have the floor.

[Iqra Khalid, Liberal, Mississauga—Erin Mills, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Are you intending to call meetings over the summer?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I am not intending to call them. However, I know there have been discussions among the parties. I understand there's some goodwill. I am going to do my best to have us spend as much time as possible in our ridings, and I can truthfully and honestly say I am not intending to call meetings.

Okay. I believe Ms. Shanahan was next.

Mr. Green, I do recognize you, but you're fourth on the list. Is that okay?

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Yes.