Public Accounts Committee on Oct. 2nd, 2024

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

It seems you did not listen to his testimony. Also, the notes you were given were very poorly taken. That witness was talking about something that remains ongoing and about what will happen in the future. He made several references to Sustainable Development Technology Canada and what that will become of it once it joins the NRC.

Ms. Doyle, one thing that is sorely missing in all this is an apology to these whistle-blowers. These people are very brave, and they're willing to come forward when they think something is bad for taxpayers. They are often mistreated, which is why the Bloc Québécois introduced a bill to protect them.

As a member of SDTC's board of directors, will you finally apologize to these whistle-blowers? Will you listen to what they have to say and correct mistakes that were made?

That's precisely why you were hired, in fact.

[Cassie Doyle]

As a new board of SDTC, our focus is on moving this organization forward. We have been given a very distinct mandate, which we are implementing now. That is going to be our focus for the term of our appointment.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Ms. Sinclair‑Desgagné, your time is up, but you'll have the floor again in the next round.

Mr. Desjarlais, you now have two and a half minutes.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Ms. Doyle, I want to return to the topic of the very valuable workforce that exists at SDTC. The people, the everyday folks who are trying to show up to contribute to their country, offer innovation and offer their skills in what is a very large emerging sector. I do believe Canada can become a global leader when it comes to the development of innovative technologies that support our economic goals but also support our sustainability goals. These are things that are important to any 21st-century country that needs to create solutions moving forward.

As part of enabling the support for these workers in their transition from SDTC to what will be a new entity, there are concerns I have, coming from labour in particular, that revolve around the treatment of workers at SDTC.

You're likely aware, Ms. Doyle, of a report internal to the government, under the name McCarthy Tétrault. It's an internal investigation by a third party to investigate the claims by workers and the conditions of workers within SDTC. There was a credible challenge and a credible concern raised by way of a whistle-blower. This whistle-blower, known to this committee as Witness 1, claimed at that time that there were severe instances of misogyny and homophobia, instances of racism—one employee was asked to remove their hijab—and very serious instances of discrimination.

It was the response of the government, when hearing these concerns, to have a third party review, which I agree with. I think it was the right call, by any reasonable government, by any reasonable party, to suggest, yes, we need to shed some light on this circumstance. Light is the best disinfectant. Let's get transparency. Let's get truth. Let's bring some of these employees forward.

The biggest concern I have related to that was the fact that there were NDAs—non-disclosure agreements—signed by those workers prior to that commission, disabling their ability to represent their truths. Will the new creation that comes out of SDTC respect workers?

Will it respect their right to unionize? Will it respect them if they choose to be represented by the Public Service Alliance of Canada? Will those workers have real protections moving forward?

[Cassie Doyle]

You refer to the McCarthy Tétrault report, which is one of the foundational pieces that we as a board have used in moving forward.

The personnel of SDTC will transition into the NRC. As you know, that is a unionized workplace as part of the more core public service of Canada. The work that's going on now is how to integrate all the individuals in SDTC into that workplace, but they certainly will enjoy the same benefits as anyone in the public service unions.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

You'll have one last opportunity, Mr. Desjarlais.

Turning now to Mr. Cooper, you have the floor for five minutes, please.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Doyle, I take it from your testimony that not one cent of money that improperly went out the door through the green slush fund has been recovered in the four months that the interim board has been in place. Is that correct?

[Cassie Doyle]

We have a process in place to review every single project on an individual basis, and it—

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

I understand that you have a process in place. You've explained that. My question is just to confirm that at present not one cent has been recovered.

[Cassie Doyle]

No. There's a process under way now—

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Thank you. Not one cent has been recovered. Thank you for that.

The process that I presume you're alluding to is the consulting firms that are undertaking reassessments. Is that the process?

[Cassie Doyle]

Yes, that's the process, as recommended by the Auditor General.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

I want to be clear in understanding what is being done through these independent consulting firms and the review that is taking place as to who's eligible and who won't be eligible. You've noted more than once that the projects that will be down on the list and will be flagged—and where there is wrongdoing, will not be eligible—are those where the Auditor General identified, for instance, conflicts of interest. Is that correct?

[Cassie Doyle]

The process under way is reassessing every project around its eligibility.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Maybe just to help you answer, the Auditor General went through 226 of 420 projects. Of the 226 projects reviewed by the Auditor General, the Auditor General identified 186 conflicts of interest. Based upon the sample that the Auditor General took, in which the Auditor General found that 82% of projects involved conflicts of interest, when you look at the balance of the projects, there could be somewhere in the neighbourhood of anywhere from 180 to 200 additional conflicts of interest that involved former green slush fund board members. Those are a lot of conflicts. That's a lot of wrongdoing to examine.

I am wondering exactly what is being done and what assurance you can provide that those conflicts and that wrongdoing are being captured? Count me skeptical if you're telling me that some third party consultants are coming in and are doing that work in a sufficient way.

[Cassie Doyle]

I can assure you that the process is well under way. We're using a number of different consultants so we can get this work done in an accelerated fashion. Where there's any instance of wrongdoing, after each review of wrongdoing, we will take action.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

One instance is the $220,000 that was improperly funnelled into Annette Verschuren's company. She moved two motions to funnel $220,000 into a company of which she was the CEO, the majority shareholder and the sole director. She has been found guilty of violating multiple sections of the Conflict of Interest Act. There is a black-and-white case of wrongdoing that has been identified by the Auditor General.

Has your process been initiated to recover those funds now that the Ethics Commissioner has issued a report?

[Cassie Doyle]

That is one of the projects that are under review now.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

What is there to review? She has been found guilty by the Ethics Commissioner, so why is it, in the face of that, the SDTC board is not immediately, through its process, taking steps to recover those funds that improperly went out the door in a blatant conflict of interest?

[Cassie Doyle]

Yes, and I understand that she was also the subject of a conflict of interest in the Ethics Commissioner's report.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

Up next is Ms. Bradford.

You have the floor for five minutes, please.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you so much, Ms. Doyle, for joining us today and giving us your testimony.

Just for clarification purposes, can you tell us how many different third parties—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I'll have to stop you.

Gentlemen, order, please.

Ms. Bradford, you have the floor again. It's five minutes from the top, if you like.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Ms. Doyle, for attending today and for your testimony. For clarification, can you clarify how many different third party consultants are doing these reviews in order to expedite the process?

[Cassie Doyle]

I believe there are three consultancies that have been retained.